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  1. #91

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    The maximum carnauba content would be 55% in my opinion. And even then, I`ve personally found it to be incredibly difficult to work with. I still strongly feel that most carnaubas advertised with 50% or "more" in carnauba content are truly advertising a weight, not a volume. 30% by volume is about 50% by weight. That`s why you never can truly assess the amount of carnauba in a manufactured wax unless the manufacturer specifically lists their percentage in weight or volume.



    THE ULTIMATE MYTH (And write this one down): The % of carnauba content in wax, no matter how it is disclosed, only matters to the amount of wax you will actually use per application. It has no bearing whatsoever on the quality of the wax, nor the finish it will produce. More carnauba just means you get more bang for your buck per tin of wax. However, the pitfall for consumers is that since you apply less wax you have a chance to miss spots on the vehicle than if you were using more product per application.



    Should high carnauba % wax cost more than low % carnauba wax? Oddly, no. Solvent costs more per pound than carnauba. Go figure.



    One common thought from posters here seems to be that wax only costs a few dollars to make. This is another good myth to dispel. The raw ingredients may be in that price range, but you still also have a cost to manufacture and market the wax. Employees are not free, nor are Autopia banner ads. I dont state this to try and justify anyones pricing, but the rules of business are that of which it`s more than the simple material costs that factor into a produts end-cost. Kinda like the plastic storage tubs you pay $19.95 on TV for that costs $0.75 to make. How much do national television ads and a call center to take orders cost?



    Good replies from everyone, nothing we all like reading more than constructive thinking.

  2. #92

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    Just a side note. If you detail for a living, using an outrageously expensive wax is a quick path to less profits and possibly business failure. This holds true for most products used in detailing. The difference in appearance between an average priced wax and a high priced wax is marginal at best. In others words the difference is not noticeable to the customer and adds no value to the service. For the individual consumer, I can understand spending high dollar on a wax. As 01blueCLS stated, if it makes you fell good and you have the means, go for it.
    Brad Will- Owner

    Reflections Auto Salon LLC

  3. #93

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    Anthony,



    You do not have to take the challenge. I put the opportunity out there to all critics of high end waxes, that say that they`re not up to their claims and/or that all lsps and waxes are equal.



    Secondly, while I respect the opinion of those people that you`ve spoken to, I do not know of them, nor have these people produced products on the market, or (as far as I`ve know from this post) have manufactured their own wax products or have conducted and published studies on carnauba and other waxes. I can`t really buy into what is claimed by these people, other than the fact that its their opinion based on their experience.



    Third, Zymol has produced their products for several years, and as of yet have not been banned from manufacturing their products. The company freely discloses the content of their wax products, and stand by their claims. All anyone (including those folks that you`ve quoted) would need to do would be to examine any of those products and perform an ingredients analysis to actually determine the validity of Zymols claims. If this can be done, then again, my challenge would be to disclose any misclaims (or validation) of Zymol`s product performance and ingredient specifications.



    So...my challenge remains. Put Zymol or any of the exotic waxes to the test, instead of bashing their products without trying them personally. Otherwise, discussions such as this topic are a waste of internet text space, when describing the actual performance of products without a use or comparison experience to support them.

  4. #94

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    I`ll gladly test any high end Zymol waxes you want to send me samples of.



    Putting them to the test would be easier on someone else`s $400 worth of wax.



    Personally though, I can see a visual difference between Meguiars #16 and Pinnacle Souveran but I can`t say the difference would be worth the increased cost to everyone.
    www.scottwax.com

    Certified Opti-Coat Pro/Pro 3 installer

  5. #95
    Swirls?!?! NNOOOOOOO!!!!! Big Leegr's Avatar
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    lbls1- Bud Abraham is the head guy at Detail Plus. They sell some chemicals/equipment for car wash places, but mostly he seems to be a "business side" of the business kind of guy-marketing plans, seminars, etc.

    David is from Optimum (according to Anthony-I don`t know him either).

    And Ron Ketcham is from AutoInt (Automotive International). They sell the ValueGuard line as well as private label for various car companies. Generally considered a fairly knowledgeable guy with many years of experience.
    Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult!

  6. #96

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    Thanks. It doesn`t make me confident in their opinions, despite their occupation. If you`ve used zymol and have been dissatisfied with it, then that is an acceptable statement. Just say that its a statement based on your experience.



    However, saying or suggesting that a product doesn`t have a percentage of a carnauba ingredient or doesn`t perform to its suggested ability without offering evidence, such as a chemical lab analysis, doesn`t give a claim any validity other than the appearance that it is an opinion, despite being from a personal or professional experience.



    I want a clear statement to be made, and moreover, back up the statement with concrete facts, or declare that its an opinion. Generalizing a statement as being true solely on one`s experience or affiliations do(es) nothing to validate any product as being legitimate or fraudulent.

  7. #97

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    Yeah, but the question everyone`s really wondering is how much carnauba is in Epiphany wax, with 23k gold leaf? (You had to be prowling around the Hot Tub early in the winter to get that reference)

  8. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottwax

    Personally though, I can see a visual difference between Meguiars #16 and Pinnacle Souveran but I can`t say the difference would be worth the increased cost to everyone.


    I think that`s maybe the salient point here, can`t we all just get along? I`m willing to believe that a $400 wax might be better (as well as willing to believe that it isn`t), but it makes no difference because as of now, I`ve never bought a wax that goes for more than $30 a jar (and I think I got that on sale for $20), and although I possibly could see buying Souveran for $80, I just can`t see it ever being worth it to me to buy anything that cost more than that.

  9. #99

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    I`ll keep it simple and stick with my pro car beauty products Yellow paste wax! It works beautifully and its 20 bucks per tub! Deep shine every time! I refer to my theory as the KISS theory! "Keep it simple stupid" LOL! Works for me......



    .................................................. ........C

  10. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gumball
    I`ll keep it simple and stick with my pro car beauty products Yellow paste wax! It works beautifully and its 20 bucks per tub! Deep shine every time! I refer to my theory as the KISS theory! "Keep it simple stupid" LOL! Works for me......



    .................................................. ........C


    Perfect............what works for you, works...........And to whoever doesnt like your philosophy.
    Owner of West Coast Detail Supply.

    Light travels faster then sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

  11. #101

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    This all has gone a bit off topic from the so called mythes of carnauba. Shame on all of you for speaking without trying. I have seen so many arguments in my short time here about product A being better than product B and the poster has never even tried product B!!! But believes so much in tradition or whatever reason to make him believe that his choice is the right one.



    I`m sorry to say that much of what the OP is saying here is a lot of conjecture and marketing of his own. While I appreciare people trying to inform the masses about products and procedure, I think we should all be a bit more carefull before we post. Makinging blanket comments is not wise. Yes, much of what you see on the shelf, internet, TV, etc. is marketing. If not for marketing many products would die. The OP is doing a bit of his own marketing to get his name out there and improve his reputation as a wax maker. Nothing wrong with that. However as stated making blanket comments does not show wisdom. Saying that "white carnauba is just yellow bleached...OOOPS" is probably not the best way to dispel a myth. White carnauba does have greater advantages than yellow alone. It is rare because most companies would rather not spend the extra cash in the refinement process. And why doesn`t my carnauba wax last more than a month? Perhaps my car is driven once a month. I have a feeling the wax is still there. We should all be carefull about producing our opinions as blanket fact. Not trying to be passive agressive, but rather want to show the importance of being unbias and use referenced facts when trying to dispel a myth.



    I found the parallel between wax and shampoo kind interesting. There are several ingredients in shampoo as there are in wax. Pantene markets shine. That shine comes from wax in the sampoo. Kinda funny eh? Problem is wax is not good for your hair. It is hard to wash out and can cause build up an irriate your scalp. Just a tid bit. I have a friend who is in the hair care industry and have learned more than I even thought I needed to know about hair care....but since I am losing it I thought it paramount. To say that buying a bottle of $36 dollor will not do any better than a $3.50 bottle is not a wise comment. There are in fact shampoos with better formulations even tho they may have the same ingredients on the bottle. And perhaps there is just one ingredient in that bottle that creates an advantage over the other (even if it is slight). Same with wax. Unless you know the percent of each ingredient and the formulation there is no way to say that a $36 is = to a $3.50. Perhaps there is more pyrithione zinc in product A than in B. Perhaps wax maker A uses a better solvent than B to produce a "White wax".



    All that to say we should stop with the pissing at each other. If you want to use a Carnauba use it. If you like a synthetic use it. If you want to spend $7000 or $15 that is up to you. But unless you have hard facts don`t bother trying to sway me or anyone else on what products are better than the other. In the end it is how you use the products rather than what you buy. And also for the pros it matters what your customer thinks about your product.



    Love, Peace and Hair Grease (Hair Grease contains bees wax, petrolatum, microcrystalline wax and parafine to name a few ingredients )



    :lock:

  12. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by lbls1
    Anthony,



    You do not have to take the challenge. I put the opportunity out there to all critics of high end waxes, that say that they`re not up to their claims and/or that all lsps and waxes are equal.



    Secondly, while I respect the opinion of those people that you`ve spoken to, I do not know of them, nor have these people produced products on the market, or (as far as I`ve know from this post) have manufactured their own wax products or have conducted and published studies on carnauba and other waxes. I can`t really buy into what is claimed by these people, other than the fact that its their opinion based on their experience.



    Third, Zymol has produced their products for several years, and as of yet have not been banned from manufacturing their products. The company freely discloses the content of their wax products, and stand by their claims. All anyone (including those folks that you`ve quoted) would need to do would be to examine any of those products and perform an ingredients analysis to actually determine the validity of Zymols claims. If this can be done, then again, my challenge would be to disclose any misclaims (or validation) of Zymol`s product performance and ingredient specifications.



    So...my challenge remains. Put Zymol or any of the exotic waxes to the test, instead of bashing their products without trying them personally. Otherwise, discussions such as this topic are a waste of internet text space, when describing the actual performance of products without a use or comparison experience to support them.




    Bud Abraham - Runs Detail Plus and yes more of a salesperson than the actual maker of products BUT he has years of experience in the detailing industry and his company manufacturers products so he works with chemists. He is the author of many articles in industry (detailing/car washing) magazines and travels the globe conducting seminars.



    Ron Ketcham works for ValuGard International. They work with many of the major car manufacturers and provide for them most of their in house products. They work closely with paint manufacturers such as PPG. He also works closely with chemists that make these products for ValuGard. Many of the products people are using on these forums are actually private labeled ValuGard products.



    Dr. David Ghodoussi holds a Masters and Ph.D. in Polymer and organic chemistry and also an MBA and degrees in chemical engineering and chemistry. He also has 12 years experience producing paints for the automotive industry. He is the creator and producer of Optimum products.



    So I have some qualified resources to go to when I have questions, such as this one. If you like call David up and speak with him and ask him, from a chemistry view, what could possibly justify a wax costing $500.00.....even $100.00?



    Ron "Grumpy" Ketcham is also available to speak with. His knowledge in these areas is great and he`ll give it to you straight.



    I again state there is no need to test a high dollar wax to a lower cost wax because there is nothing within the ingredients to make such a huge difference.



    Now are there waxes that are superior to other paste waxes? Of course there are. Some waxes are just plain junk and fillers but again my argument is cost, as in, there is nothing in a $500.00 tub of wax to justify that cost other than people willing to pay that price. There is only so much carnauba wax that can be crammed into a wax mixture. The higher the carnauba content the more difficult the wax is to manufacturer and work with.



    As Benvegas and I have noted, the cost for a product must take into consideration R&D, labels, promotion, labor, warehousing, equipment, etc. But what on earth could possibly justify $500.00 or more? I have no problem with people buying and using that wax. My beef comes with people who claim that because it cost them $500 it is the best wax made, nothing can compare to it...it`s superior to any and all waxes.....it has to be because it costs $500.00!!



    Anthony
    "The Art & Science of Auto Detail"

  13. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by SubyDude

    All that to say we should stop with the pissing at each other.



    :lock:


    I`ve actually read this entire thread from beginning to end and no one is "pissing on each other"... yet. No one has called any poster anything derogatory and this is what makes this forum the great forum that it is... Almost everyone keeps their cool and makes their statement in a professional manner. Have some of the people taken this thread a little too personal? Perhaps, but they have kept an even keel and their posts reflect their elevated, but controlled opinions.



    When I first read this thread in its infancy, I immediately thought "Uh oh... someone`s out to stir the wax pot... again..." Perhaps the pot "needs" to be stirred a bit and some educational material revisited by newcomers alike.



    -Mike

  14. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Orosco
    Bud Abraham - Runs Detail Plus and yes more of a salesperson than the actual maker of products BUT he has years of experience in the detailing industry and his company manufacturers products so he works with chemists. He is the author of many articles in industry (detailing/car washing) magazines and travels the globe conducting seminars.



    Ron Ketcham works for ValuGard International. They work with many of the major car manufacturers and provide for them most of their in house products. They work closely with paint manufacturers such as PPG. He also works closely with chemists that make these products for ValuGard. Many of the products people are using on these forums are actually private labeled ValuGard products.



    Dr. David Ghodoussi holds a Masters and Ph.D. in Polymer and organic chemistry and also an MBA and degrees in chemical engineering and chemistry. He also has 12 years experience producing paints for the automotive industry. He is the creator and producer of Optimum products.



    So I have some qualified resources to go to when I have questions, such as this one. If you like call David up and speak with him and ask him, from a chemistry view, what could possibly justify a wax costing $500.00.....even $100.00?



    Ron "Grumpy" Ketcham is also available to speak with. His knowledge in these areas is great and he`ll give it to you straight.



    I again state there is no need to test a high dollar wax to a lower cost wax because there is nothing within the ingredients to make such a huge difference.



    Now are there waxes that are superior to other paste waxes? Of course there are. Some waxes are just plain junk and fillers but again my argument is cost, as in, there is nothing in a $500.00 tub of wax to justify that cost other than people willing to pay that price. There is only so much carnauba wax that can be crammed into a wax mixture. The higher the carnauba content the more difficult the wax is to manufacturer and work with.



    As Benvegas and I have noted, the cost for a product must take into consideration R&D, labels, promotion, labor, warehousing, equipment, etc. But what on earth could possibly justify $500.00 or more? I have no problem with people buying and using that wax. My beef comes with people who claim that because it cost them $500 it is the best wax made, nothing can compare to it...it`s superior to any and all waxes.....it has to be because it costs $500.00!!



    Anthony


    I think its fair to say that we are at an impass. Those people have noteworthy credentials, and their experience would have been helpful in this discussion. I have absolutely no problem with facts, statements, testimonials for and against lsp products. What I do find a problem with are statements made that are trying to be qualified as absolute facts without documentation behind them to reinforce what the statements actually mean.



    I think everything else said, however, about marketing, promotion, etc., even your last statement about the possibility of products being better or superior in features, are good statements that can lead a meaningful debate. Everyone is entitled to their views and opinion, but I just advise that people should be objective in their comments and relate them to the context which they were derived from.



    In the end, all of us are going to use the product that produced the results for us in the past, whether synthetic or natural, entry level priced to exotic to ridiculous.

  15. #105

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    I think it is not nessarily the Carnauba it is the extras in the can that cost the money. A car can only accept x amount of Carnauba. The extras give the looks.
    MDRX8

 

 
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