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  1. #76

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    Well here`s the low down.....if you like the carnauba by all means use it. It may not last like a synthetic but many people can tell a difference between a synthetic and a carnauba and they prefer a paste or cream wax.



    Personally I like the polymer/carnauba system.



    The area of "looks" is always subjective to each individual so there is no "best" lsp in that regards. If you`re informed then you`ll know that you will need to reapply the wax more than the synthetic which is no big deal really.



    Benvegas though was not seeking to make a debate about appearance but more about the "myths" that follow carnauba waxes around. One of those being that a higher cost wax means it`s better.



    Anthony
    "The Art & Science of Auto Detail"

  2. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Orosco
    Well here`s another question.....why are most top concourse winners users of carnauba?



    Anthony
    Anthony the othe side of the coin says if the majority of them were using a Synthetic, the higher the opportunity for a synthetic to take top honor.

    I also agree with Edwins statement where it may be more traditional to use a Nuba.....

    All im stating is I dont see a difference in the two other then stability and longevity. I know for certain if you put UPP (My fav) aside lets say a well known Nuba, ummmm, P21s, I know for certain I would not be able to tell the difference.

    I find Bens info very valuable, im glad he brought it to light as well.....
    Owner of West Coast Detail Supply.

    Light travels faster then sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

  3. #78

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    I tried silence..........but I can`t. I can`t let this discussion go without throwing in my old standby tune.



    That tune is........you will never know how good something is (or is not) without trying it firsthand, and doing a real comparison yourself. All of the muckety talk about high cost and no real benefit means nothing if you havent really tried the product, and put it against other waxes, lsps, and what you were using b4.



    Don`t knock the king`s creams bc they cost a fortune. Try on one of those `nubas...yes I dare you....and put it to the test.



    If they fail, then by all means say that they failed. Also show us how they failed (don`t be bashful......show us pics). Say how it was used, how it was compared, what products you compared them with, and the duration of your comparison.



    But all of the talk about hyped products that don`t deliver won`t accomplish anything other than making me laugh..........not that I don`t appreciate it though. And............I saw all of you looking at that English gentleman`s work so don`t try it...............lollll!!!

  4. #79

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    There`s one guy on here I know has tried MANY of the top of the line carnaubas and that`s DaveKG.



    Someone should get him in on this and see what he says. He could really tell us what the difference is between the high-end and low-end carnaubas. I know you guys have seen his collection.

  5. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by lbls1
    I tried silence..........but I can`t. I can`t let this discussion go without throwing in my old standby tune.



    That tune is........you will never know how good something is (or is not) without trying it firsthand, and doing a real comparison yourself. All of the muckety talk about high cost and no real benefit means nothing if you havent really tried the product, and put it against other waxes, lsps, and what you were using b4.



    Don`t knock the king`s creams bc they cost a fortune. Try on one of those `nubas...yes I dare you....and put it to the test.



    If they fail, then by all means say that they failed. Also show us how they failed (don`t be bashful......show us pics). Say how it was used, how it was compared, what products you compared them with, and the duration of your comparison.



    But all of the talk about hyped products that don`t deliver won`t accomplish anything other than making me laugh..........not that I don`t appreciate it though. And............I saw all of you looking at that English gentleman`s work so don`t try it...............lollll!!!


    Tell ya what, you front the $1000.00 and I`ll try it.



    Speaking to several chemists and reps that actually make these products they can give me no reason why any wax should be priced over $30.00 for 8oz.



    What`s the difference between a 16oz hair shampoo that costs $35.00 and one that costs $3.50 ? Not much when you read the ingredient lists. Plant extracts one may say? They do nothing for your hair. Does one moisturize better because of certain ingredients? No not really but it SOUNDS or READS so much nicer so it makes one think they are really moisturizing their hair. I have long hair and am rather anal about its care and I used to buy into all that crap about "It must be better for my hair because it costs as much as my car payment" mentality but after some research I found it to be skilled marketing.



    So do I need to buy and use all shampoos and conditioners to know that their isn`t anything in one over another to justify an extreme cost? Nope. Why? Because the chemistry is basically the same with the same main functional ingredients. So it is with wax. There is no secret ingredient in Zymol Estate that is theirs alone for the chemistry and make up of the functional ingredients is the same. Therefore I do not need to buy and use "the kings" wax in order to know it`s worth about $6.00 in materials....if that.



    Anthony
    "The Art & Science of Auto Detail"

  6. #81

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    Can`t help you with the shampoo...sorry.



    And who said anything about spending $1,000?? Or Zymol??



    Once more (since we`re talking about Zymol) there is a huge difference between the ingredients of a typical Zymol product and some other wax manufacturers products. One major difference is that.......Zymol reveals their primary ingredients of their waxes. Since the author of this thread protests the attributes of high content waxes, I`ll spare you the description of their main ingredient.......which btw even their entry level wax, and dare I say even their cleaner wax, contains more carnauba content than some "high quality" brands.



    So, begging to differ, there are significant differences between brands, despite their use of a common main ingredient. My challenge remains.......instead of the sour grapes talk, put your money.......and your own lsp to the test.....and see if you`re missing out.



    Why not take the challenge??

  7. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by ConglomrationAL
    There`s one guy on here I know has tried MANY of the top of the line carnaubas and that`s DaveKG.



    Someone should get him in on this and see what he says. He could really tell us what the difference is between the high-end and low-end carnaubas. I know you guys have seen his collection.






    agree 100%
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  8. #83

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    First off, what the heck happened to the quick reply option when you view a thread?



    I agree with Anthony and his analogy of some waxes to hair care products. It`s all marketing. There really should be no reason why ANY wax costs as much as $7000. Ok so you get "unlimited refills", but if they filled one or two jars for you every year, for the rest of your life, they`ve still made a lot of money during your lifetime. No business is going to sell a product to you where they can possibly lose money, otherwise they wouldn`t stay in business!



    Luckily, as men, our shopping habits are not bad as women. Any of you that`s ever been with a woman, at one point or another, have discovered that they shop differently than men. Why does a good pair of boxers costs me $12 for a 3 pack, but a woman pays $12 for barely any fabric on a thong underwear? Generally speaking, their products costs more. How many men do you know spend more than $5 for a fat bucket of hair gel? Now count how many women you know that own hair sprays that costs $20 or more? Whenever I see Zaino prices, I think $$$ until I see how much my wife pays for BARELY any product in these makeup kits she buys. The market for these products exist for women because they are willing to pay for it.



    The same thing can be said for these waxes like Zymol, Victoria, Swissol, etc. Some guys are just willing to spend their hard earned money on it. Even if it`s better than a $15 can of wax, is it hundreds or thousands of dollars better? Most likely not.



    Have you ever noticed that most of these people who use these high end waxes are in the UK or Europe? I live in SoCal where we probably have the highest concentration of cars in the world, yet I don`t know of one single place that sells a can or tub of wax that costs more than $50. The only place I know of that carries Zymol on retail shelves is Super Autobacs, and even then they only carry wax like Zymol Carbon, Japon, etc for $40 or $50 bucks.



    IMO, this kind of market for high end wax is VERY SMALL here in the US, compared to elsewhere. I`m not trying to put down people like Paul Dalton or some of the other UK detailers here (they all do a very excellent job), but sometimes when I`m reading their Click & Brags, sometimes it gets a bit overdramatical. (Queue Paul to upload paint readings to his laptop to get a visual image in his head of the car`s paint).



    If you`ve ever read their Click&Brag, it`s more like a story. And because they`re able to put this drama into detailing, they`re able to charge high end prices. Another good use of marketing. No wax is worth $7000, and no detail job should cost $5000 but hey, if someone wants to spend their money like that who`s to stop them? Congrats to the people who can actually pull it off, because I don`t see anyone here in the US being able to pull that off anytime soon. These people/companies can sell ice to eskimoes if they wanted to. That`s how good they are at their job.

  9. #84
    wannafbody
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    BenVegas-what`e the max percentage of a wax (by weight or volume) that can be carnauba content?

  10. #85

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    Geez, I hope all you guys remember to take your BP medicine tonight... :chill: :getdown

  11. #86

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    Wow...reading this entire thread in one sitting was interesting and LONG! lol I have a very simple response, use whatever makes you happy!

    I can GUARANTEE EVERYONE on this board has bought something they dont need and spent a lot of money on. Who needs a 60 inch TV when you a 30 inch will suffice? Who needs a $45k BMW when you can buy a used Civic for $5k? Why buy a GPS system when you can get a printed map? So on and so on....



    Preference along with NUMEROUS other reasons I wont get into. I personally have used sealants and waxes of all sorts. I happen to like Zymol Estate Glazes very much. I may not be able to afford to keep buying them but what is the bottom line....I LIKE USING IT! If it mind control of the Marketing God then so it be, its part of life that we buy things we dont need or have high perceptions of.



    I just dont like people saying spending hundreds of dollars on wax is stupid and those people are stupid. People probably think Autopians are stupid for caring so much about their cars. Everyone has something they have bought that others would think is stupid. I mean I have detailed a few $200k-$300k cars, while almost all of us will never own one, should we call Ferrari owners stupid? They have the means, its their money, they are happy with them let it be. Same with us, I have money for wax, I buy what wax I want, Im happy. I dont think I have ever said people that use a certain product are fools for falling for a marketing hype.



    ENDING NOTE - BUY WHAT YOU WANT AND WHAT MAKES YOU HAPPY! JUST DONT JUDGE OR SAY OTHERS ARE FOOLISH WHEN THEY DO SO.



    Also, I wrote this quickly after a long day.... grammar police please dont arrest me.



    AND ANOTHER NOTE: Can we all just "E-Hug" each other right now!
    Refined Detailing

    Chris - Sole Proprietor

  12. #87

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    I just re-read my post above....yep.... clear as mud LOL Like I said im tired and dont feel like editing
    Refined Detailing

    Chris - Sole Proprietor

  13. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by lbls1
    Can`t help you with the shampoo...sorry.



    And who said anything about spending $1,000?? Or Zymol??



    Once more (since we`re talking about Zymol) there is a huge difference between the ingredients of a typical Zymol product and some other wax manufacturers products. One major difference is that.......Zymol reveals their primary ingredients of their waxes. Since the author of this thread protests the attributes of high content waxes, I`ll spare you the description of their main ingredient.......which btw even their entry level wax, and dare I say even their cleaner wax, contains more carnauba content than some "high quality" brands.



    So, begging to differ, there are significant differences between brands, despite their use of a common main ingredient. My challenge remains.......instead of the sour grapes talk, put your money.......and your own lsp to the test.....and see if you`re missing out.



    Why not take the challenge??




    Quote Originally Posted by wannafbody
    BenVegas-what`e the max percentage of a wax (by weight or volume) that can be carnauba content?




    First to lbls1,



    Why should I take the challenge? I have tried in the last 18 years or so of detailing 3 different high end Zymol waxes. All of them were nice waxes. But no different from other waxes and in no way justify the cost of anything over $30.00 (I`m including costs such as marketing, payroll, warehouse, etc. The actual cost of materials is only a few bucks at the most).



    Now to answer both of the above posters.....I have spoken with David, a paint chemist, of Optimum Labs, Bud Abraham and also Ron Ketchum and all 3 have stated that around 30% carnauba is right around the max of carnauba content. Even less in cream waxes.



    So if Zymol (or some other high end wax) can put in 30% carnauba max (either white, yellow, blue or pink) and charge $500.00 for a tub and Pinnacle puts in 30% carnauba also and charges $65.00 please inform us all just what justifies the extra $400.00 for the Zymol?? Do they have a secret or special ingredient that is not readily available to the rest of the chemists out there?



    People pay $150.00 for a Nike shoe because it says or has the NIKE name and/or logo. A Converse shoe for $30.00 is just as good. Likewise the "prestige" and exclusivity of saying...."Well, my wax costs $500.00 and it must be applied only a certain way" drives people to buy and use that wax over a $25.00 tub of S100.



    Now if looked at logically a car is a car is a car. There is no difference between a Yugo and a Porseche 911 when both are judged on the level of transportation. Both get you from point A to point B, correct (although you may be taking a risk with the Yugo)?



    Now, take both of those cars and put them on the track. Suddenly you realize why one costs $80,000.00 and the other can be bought with a nice stamp collection. My point? Well different strokes for different folks.



    Some people WANT to buy a wax and use a wax that costs hundreds of dollars and that`s fine. It`s their money. My argument is not against that but rather against the claim that there is a difference between said waxes that justifies $100.00 or more. If I was stupid I would buy one of those high dollar waxes and have it analyzed by a chemist and then compare its make up to a $30.00 tub of Trade Secret. I claim there would be no difference. I would compare them panel by panel. I would again claim no difference.



    Anthony
    "The Art & Science of Auto Detail"

  14. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by 01bluecls
    ENDING NOTE - BUY WHAT YOU WANT AND WHAT MAKES YOU HAPPY! JUST DONT JUDGE OR SAY OTHERS ARE FOOLISH WHEN THEY DO SO.


    Good post--I do think though that it`s a given that people will buy what they want and will use what makes them happy. I couldn`t really envision anyone doing otherwise. But that`s different from someone just wondering or questioning if an expensive wax`s price is justified and if it has certain characteristics that set it apart from lower-priced waxes.
    If you`re irritated by every rub, how will you be polished?

    -Rumi

  15. #90

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    there`s carnuba in the ingredient list of my gummie bears.
    -Sam

    Serving Northern California (East Bay) from

    San Francisco, Berkeley, to San Jose.

 

 
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