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  1. #31

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    I would like him (anyone) to reveal some of these sources if the research has been done. Or at least say its an opinion. I`ll respect either one. Just don`t reel off a whole lot of points coming from who knows where without saying if its fact or fiction.

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by velobard
    Does anyone have a link to the post where the guy who created Souveran describes what it took for him to come up with a wax he was happy with?


    I think it was this one..



    Pinnacle Souveran
    If you`re irritated by every rub, how will you be polished?

    -Rumi

  3. #33

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    benvegas - Thank you for the post. As a newbie trying to learn as much as possible, this thread has helped immensely.

  4. #34

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    There`s been some great replies and questions. Here`s some answers:



    1.) Since Carnauba is mostly grown in northeastern Brazil along the wet regions, most of it is imported to distributors by the same source. Because of that, for a 50Lb bag, your price is generally around $8. We all seem to have the same cost basis. If you buy a smaller quantity the price will go up and a larger quantity the price will go down, but a ballpark is $8/Lb for a 50Lb bag.



    2.) Since all Carnauba #1 Yellow grade is the same, this doesnt have any relation to cheap or expensive coffee. Carnauba is carnauba. While there are different grades, all auto waxes that I know of are made from Carnauba #1.



    3.) Bleaching. I should have clarified this a little more. Bleaching yellow carnauba to be white provides zero added benefits other than changing the color from yellow to white. The process of bleaching can be tumbling raw flakes with color reducing agents, or, as simple as using Clorox. The major point about "White #1" is that it`s just yellow #1 with a color change, with no added benefits.



    4.) Carnauba does produce a little shine and a little gloss. It`s minimal enough where if you dont include some additives in the wax to aid in gloss, leveling, shine, color and depth, then your wax will not look so good. The reason being is we apply such a thin coat of it to the vehicles surface, in food manufacturing the density is much greater. The process of making a jelly bean shine is part of adding the carnauba and then tumbling it, which is essentially a jelly bean buffing machine. Quite neat, it was on Food TV last week. If Carnauba was so good and a wonder wax, then all you would need to do is add solvent and package it. Since this isnt the case, that`s why we have so many types of wax that work in so many wonderful ways.



    5.) The toilet reference was a bad attempt at humor. Still, carnauba does not stain a white vehicle yellow.



    6.) 95(C) is the temperature in which I personally melt wax. 82-83(C) is the standard melting point, however when melting such a large quantity of wax in a large cooking vessel, 95(C) ensures that there arent bits and crumbs of the flakes that have not melted. You can cook carnauba at anywhere between 82-299(C), but over 95(C) you risk the additives flashing as most of the additives makers use will have a flash point of around 98(C).



    7.) Zaino`s reference to the state of carnauba is a pretty generalized statement, I dont agree with it. If Carnauba was so poor optically and hazy, we would use synthetic wax instead of carnauba wax.



    8.) Facts or Opinions? What I state is fact with my opinions. What I say is not false, it is not marketing, it is nothing more than pure scientific fact. This is also my job. It`s what I do professionally. As far as references go, pretty much everything I`ve said is available on the Internet already. It`s just not in an easy to read format nor all in one place (until this post). To satisfy the critics, here`s a partial list of references:



    Ester - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Carnauba wax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Carnauba Wax

    Essential Oils Supplier Guide and Directory

    Chemical Manufacturing - Auto Appearance Chemicals - Formulations - Dow Corning

    CHEMCENTRAL:Customer Tools

    waxes

    K-Solv Products

    ExxonMobil Chemical

    Hort 403 - Reading - Oils



    Of course if anyone has any questions just post away. Have fun.
    Thanks 4u2nvinmtl thanked for this post

  5. #35

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    How long can carnauba can last in a city like Houston in the summer time......?





    (90-100 degree days on a black car sitting in the sun all day long......)

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1
    How long can carnauba can last in a city like Houston in the summer time......?





    (90-100 degree days on a black car sitting in the sun all day long......)




    I think that depends on how the carnaubu is treated and made into a wax.

  7. #37

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    Good partial listing. I don`t have a clear correlation to these sources and some of the claims that you made earlier, such as durability and gloss. Most of these sources lists some chemical formulations as well as standard definitions of the various types of natural and polymer formed waxes.



    I am more interested in the process of manufacturing the white wax. I did not see a definition of this process in your sources as of yet. The process (provided in my dated source) describes several methods of producing white wax, one of them including saphonizing (right spelling...a form of soap making), other methods which included heating the compound to high temperatures, and a couple that described adding benzine, and paraffin to the wax to produce the white product. The process isn`t really described as adding a color to produce a wax with a white texture, but more of a adding chemical ingredients to wax solutions at high temperatures to produce a white wax by-product.



    There should be sources that should describe a wax`s melting point; I want to see how the wax end product, that being car wax, is affected by a wax`s chemical melting point, as well as the probability that the melting point could be reached in an end-user situation. This would give the discussion more credibility in relation to the actual longevity of a typical carnauba wax as compared with a synthetic appearance product.

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennypacker
    I think it was this one..



    Pinnacle Souveran
    That`s it! Thanks! I had a feeling it wasn`t from Autopia, but I didn`t know where to start looking. This is an excellent read for anyone interested in this topic.



    For those who haven`t seen it before he starts off by describing how he was impressed with the look of Zymol Destiny, but figured there had to be a way to get that effect without spending $300-400 per jar. You can read the rest of the story for yourself.

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yal
    I think that depends on how the carnaubu is treated and made into a wax.


    100% correct.

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by lbls1
    Good partial listing. I don`t have a clear correlation to these sources and some of the claims that you made earlier, such as durability and gloss. Most of these sources lists some chemical formulations as well as standard definitions of the various types of natural and polymer formed waxes.


    Yea, it`s tough to list all of my sources that have been learned over years of making a product. Some if it you just "know", the rest of it can be referenced.



    Quote Originally Posted by ibls1

    I am more interested in the process of manufacturing the white wax. I did not see a definition of this process in your sources as of yet. The process (provided in my dated source) describes several methods of producing white wax, one of them including saphonizing (right spelling...a form of soap making), other methods which included heating the compound to high temperatures, and a couple that described adding benzine, and paraffin to the wax to produce the white product. The process isn`t really described as adding a color to produce a wax with a white texture, but more of a adding chemical ingredients to wax solutions at high temperatures to produce a white wax by-product.


    Since this isnt something I actually do myself, I do not know the actual specifics and formula used. The process of bleaching or adding color removing agents is one I have read about before (No reference to list). The process of adding paraffin is adding a wax with subpar qualities in comparison to Carnauba, one I think is counter productive. (Let`s add a cheap wax to make the good wax white, it`ll cost us money to make a product that doesnt work as well, go figure).



    Quote Originally Posted by ibls1

    There should be sources that should describe a wax`s melting point; I want to see how the wax end product, that being car wax, is affected by a wax`s chemical melting point, as well as the probability that the melting point could be reached in an end-user situation. This would give the discussion more credibility in relation to the actual longevity of a typical carnauba wax as compared with a synthetic appearance product.


    Carnauba Wax lists the melting points of carnauba (as does the wikipedia article) -- both were linked as references earlier.



    For longevity compared with a synthetic appearance product:



    http://www.dowcorning.com/DataFiles/...c880003462.pdf



    ...that pdf from Dow Corning does not go specifically into carnauba breakdown, but it might provide some other answers you might be looking for.



    Have fun.



    -Ben

  11. #41

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    a thread referenced contained info about microcrystalline wax......

    was interesting after I looked for a product...

    RENAISSANCE WAX-POLISH







    wonder how good this would be for metal wheels, etc....

  12. #42
    wannafbody
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    benzene is a toxic solvent and if IIRC it is not used much anymore

  13. #43

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    Ok. While it still doesn`t answer my questions, post #40 is a fair enough "draw". I don`t really have enough faith in winipeka, but its good enough to at least aid a discussion. BTW that last link came up "not found".



    I just want to advise caution when describing white carnauba as a process of "adding clorox to corn flakes." It is a more involved process than just coloring.

  14. #44

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    Hrm, not sure why that last link doesnt work.



    Try:



    DOW CORNING® 2-5088 WAX



    ...and on the right side towards the bottom click the "Chemical Manufacturing, English (44K" link. That`ll take you to the PDF. It`s a goofy ********** link which might have been the problem.



    Cheers,



    -Ben

  15. #45

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    I wasnt swearing. It`s that the word "j-a-v-a-s-c-r-i-p-t" is a banned word on the forums. Oops!

 

 
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