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  1. #1

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    Repeated form : Best Drying Towel/chamois



    One way or definatly reducing marring and swirling is adopting a new wash technique. In 95% of instances you are better of with either a waterless product or ONR. Unless the car has been offroading the technologie in these products protects your paint like no soap could ever do.



    In our shops we wash 60% of car waterless, and 35% with ONR, the other 5% we send through a high qualithy tunnel wash with proper water reclaim equipment(yes a tunnel wash opperated by someone who knows what they are doing to adjust and maintain the machinery, and does not skimp on water and soap will never dammage a car).



    My personal vehicle(2007 Mustang) has overr 70k on the odometer, gets driven on dirt roads, through raging snow storms, and in every condition Canadian roads can throw at it. The car has never been washed with anything other than water less, has never been polished, and to find swirls you need one heck of a light.



    Detailing over the next few years will live a revolution of sorts, with increasing water conservation, run off control, and consumer pressure , existing water smart methods will gain in popularity, and new products and techniques will change the way we detail for the better.



    For those of you who are nay sayers(and I know you are out there) you can do a simple test to see what is happening to your paint. o to the hardware store and buy a piece of black plexiglass. Remove the covering on one face. put the piece outside on a dirt surface, and wet it down, allow ambient dust to get it dirty for a week or so(note any scratching when you remove the plastic wrap on it first). Next sepperate the pannel in 3 sections. On one section wash it with a water less product of your choice. On the second section wash 1/2 of yur car with ONR, then using the wash media that has done 1/2 of a car, wash the next section, and dry(we have found the towelpros waffle weave MF to be the best and safest drying media to date). On the last section wash 1/2 your car with the methods you normaly use, and again using the media that has washed 1/2 of your car wash your plexi panel. In repeated testing, and lab work, the bucket and soap(actualy foam pre-soak, mitt, rinse, and dry) method has consistantly induced the most scratching. Both ONR and waterless are about equal, and far superior over the traditional methods. Since you wont believe your eyes, take the panel remove the protective wrap from the other side and repeat the test.



    Since Henry Ford started making cars the methods we have used to clean cars have not evolved, in Mr. Fords times water, soap and a bucket were used to wash a car(in some cases kerosene was used as a water less wash as well) and 100+ years later some still do the same thing.



    For my Detialing shops I spend more per year in R&D than most people here make, and I have proven many times over that watersmart washing(ONR and waterless) are by far and away safer, faster, and of course much better for our environment. For 2009 it would be nice to see a few Autopians take the high road and at least try to break the wastefull traditional wash techniques. Get rid of those wastefull ,and environmentaly dangerous foam guns, sell thos pressure washers, plant a tree in your buckets, and give your sheep skin mitt a well deserved retirment For those who resist change, saying the old way is the best, do you still watch B&W TV, do you heat your leftovers in the oven instead of the Microwave, does your telephone have buttons or a dial. We know that when you want you can follow progress(you have a computer) so please make 209 the year you discover a new way to take care of your car. Imagine no more wet hands, dry feet, no soap running down into the sewer drain, your children being able to swim at the beach in 10 years, and your car being in the best condition it has ever been.



    Enjoy
    At Your Service



    Yvan




  2. #2

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    Since you`ve done so much R&D would you mind explaining exactly what makes waterless and ONR washes safer?



    For the record, I`m a big fan of ONR but my findings are the exact opposite of yours. I get minimal marring with ONR, but it`s certainly more than I get with a traditional wash using a slick shampoo and a foam gun.

  3. #3
    Neutral & Detached heatgain's Avatar
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    Yvan,

    What waterless wash product do you use?
    Gary
    The Irate Magistrate
    Neutral & Detached

  4. #4

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    FB



    Great question, The simple answer is come to the IDA educationday at MTE, it`s part of the discussion that 3 other detailers and myself are presenting during the ECO Detailing part of the education day.



    The long answer for those not attending MTE



    Unlike a traditional soap which cotains only emulsifiers and surfactants, water less also contains polymers. These polymers are designed to encapsulate the emulsified dirt, and protect the paint surface from it. In addition to that many of the leading products captialise on magnetic attraction. Your paint is negativly charged, and so is the water less wash, and if you remember back to school to negatives repulse, so now your dirt is being forced away from the paint magneticly. The next key to the puzzle is the MF towel(Note: a good towel washed without fabric softener is important) it is positivly charged, so it is attracting the dirt. Another advantage of most water less wash products(and to slightly lesser effect ONR) is that a by product of there containing polymer is that they leave behind a layer of protection not unlike that of a spray wax. A vehicle that is washed on a regular basis witha water less product now has continual protection, and the old and the new act together to further protect the surface from marring when cleaned again.



    A few important things we have learned with water less washing.



    First a quality fresh towel is required.

    Second, unlike amny internet videos, the initial wiping off of the product must be done methodicly, and with little pressure, remember you are picking up the dirt not driving into the paint. the internet videos show the user non chalantly wiping in all directions. We use linear motins, slight overlap, and work side to side working from the top of the panel to the bottom. For every panel we use a fresh surface. By folding your towels in 2 than again in 3 you obtian 12 fresh surfaces per towel. Each surface represents a panel(door, fender 1/2 roof....)

    Third allow the product to flash before buffing

    Forth if you are working on a very hot surface, wait if you can, if not reduce the size of your section to make sure the product is not dry before you wipe it off.



    I washed my car this afternoon, and here is a close up of the paint around the lettering on the door(a great place for trapped dirt, around the edges. You will notice the wonderfull factory ford orange peel, and you will also notice the absence of scratching.






    Heatgain



    I use a formula we developed and made in house, It is not for public sale, reserved only for my franchisees. That said there are many good products on the market, anda quick search of the net will yield some results. In fact many brands are the same product with colorants and scents added in, and in general all work well. The reson we made our own is that I am very lazy, and wanted a product with good glide(low resistance), but as far as the cleaning aspect goes all that I have tested(over 30) are acceptable to good. One word of caution, some are sold as MLM products, while the product is good the distribution model may leave a little to be desired.
    At Your Service



    Yvan




  5. #5
    Neutral & Detached heatgain's Avatar
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    Thanks. Very informative.

    Trying to talk my wife into driving with me to Clearwater for the mobile tech thing.
    Gary
    The Irate Magistrate
    Neutral & Detached

  6. #6

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    Gary,



    If you can make the IDA`s education day on Thursday, Yvan and I will be presenting, and this will be the topic ... Water $mart & Eco Detaling then we are around the next 2 days at the MTE for in depth dicsussions ... I hope with a cold beer!



    Yvan is an excellent champion, and he has the best technical knowledge.



    Cheers,



    -jim

  7. #7

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    Jim



    Thank you for the kind words. In fact our session is from 10:30am to Noon. Presenting with us is the discussion moderator, Anthony Flammia from Gia`s Detailing, Speaking as well will be Stuart Williams CEO of Prontowash USA, and Prentice St Clair from Detail in Progress. Our topic of choice is eco detailing and it promises to be an enlightening experiance for some.



    Attached is the link to the information and scedule of the Education day. The IDA will also be presenting seminars starting at 9am with Advanced detialing techniques and technologis. This will be followed by the ECO detailing section mentioned above.



    In the afternoon from 1:30 to 3:15 is the topic Detail marketing in tough times. The IDA education day ends with Detialing tools of the trade.



    While haunting the halls of the expo is important, over the years many have come away saying that the best part of MTE was the education day. For all attending make sure to spend some time advancing your education.

    Thursday, January 15th



    The IDA will also have a booth on the expo floor so please stop in and say hello, many detailers and suppliers will be on rotating shifts in the IDA booth.
    At Your Service



    Yvan




  8. #8

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    I wish I could attend, unfortunately work interferes. It sounds like the discussions you`ll be holding will be invaluable information.



    I tried using ONR for the first time yesterday on my very dusty car and was disappointed. I prepared myself with the two bucket method at a mixture of 1oz ONR to 2 gallons of my towns hardest water, a grout sponge for cleaning and a standard MF for drying. I then rinsed the panel twice with the grout sponge (side to side motion), before wiping dry with the standard MF. Cleaning was not stellar and some marring was introduced, which I believe to be because the grout sponge did not release the contaminants into the rinse bucket.



    I`m going to try again using the same two bucket method but instead multiple standard MF`s for the rinsing, and a WW MF for the drying portion; dabbing dry instead of wiping.
    2003 Brilliant Black Audi A4 1.8t

    2004 Tornado Red Triumph Speed Triple 955i

  9. #9

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    Gonz0



    ONR has a learning curve, so don`t give up yet. In our shops we use ONR for the rough cars(heavy salt and salt deposits) and it does a great job. I agree with you about the grout sponge, there are better alterrnatives. What we have adopted in our shops is the red Ulti Mit from Lake Country. MF also works well.



    Just as a point of reference we do not use 2 buckets, we mix up 3 gallons and with a grit guard, and a mesh pad in the bottom we can easily do 4-6 cars per bucket. I have found that with certain wash mediums the 2 bucket method actually reduces the efficency of the wash, plus its another waste of water because of a desire to do better that is not needed. Just like adding too much ONR to the water reduces its efficency, the old addage rings true, Follow the directions on the bottle. Yes the water will look like something from the bottom of a swamp, but unlike a tradtional wash soap the ONR keeps large particles in the botom of the bucket away from your paint.
    At Your Service



    Yvan




  10. #10

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    Yvan,



    This all sounds good on the surface. I just have a few questions



    You say that you spend more on R&D each year than most people make. I don`t know what kind of economy you live in, but here in New England (which isn`t too far from Quebec), the median household income is somewhere between $40k and $50K.



    If you`re spending $50K+ on just R&D, could you please elaborate on some of the results and findings? So far, what you`ve posted on this thread is no more information than one could find by reading this site for less than two hours. Everything you`ve said about ONR has already been said, by many people, many times.



    So please put that $50K to some good use and tell us something we don`t already know.



    Also - in the interest of full disclosure - what is your relationship (if any) with Optimum Polymer Technologies? Do you recieve any commission, sponsorship, or royalties from the manufacturers and/or distributors of ONR?

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by gonz0
    I wish I could attend, unfortunately work interferes. It sounds like the discussions you`ll be holding will be invaluable information.



    I tried using ONR for the first time yesterday on my very dusty car and was disappointed. I prepared myself with the two bucket method at a mixture of 1oz ONR to 2 gallons of my towns hardest water, a grout sponge for cleaning and a standard MF for drying. I then rinsed the panel twice with the grout sponge (side to side motion), before wiping dry with the standard MF. Cleaning was not stellar and some marring was introduced, which I believe to be because the grout sponge did not release the contaminants into the rinse bucket.



    I`m going to try again using the same two bucket method but instead multiple standard MF`s for the rinsing, and a WW MF for the drying portion; dabbing dry instead of wiping.


    this might help... nrwsguide

  12. #12

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    Less



    Thanks for the question. My R&D budget for 2008 was in excess of $100,000 (as a point of referrence 2008 was our lowest budget, in previous years we often went past the $250,000 mark. With our budget we have developed our own line of products to be used exclusivly by our franchisees. Also it has been used to develop techniques of work, proceedures, and some other services that we offer. When we are developing a product, or testing a product, a compound for example. The product will recive a chemical analyisis,(we have found that some companies have neglected to take into account secondary reactions in there mixtures that in turn create another chemical, that can cause harm to out technicians, or the environment) it will be teated in controlled conditions with a multitude of pads and styles of tools(rotary, DA, hand) Testing of a compound can take us up to 3 months, we do not stop at just application, we also track the test panel to follow the evolution of it. As a result of our testing we have chosen to use certain products, and chosen to develope others to better fit our needs. We have our own APC, Water less wash, Interior cleaner/protectant, and 1 step polish and wax. For us the expense was warrented becasue of the time and cost saving these products accomplish. Certian items we go with an off the shelf product because we see no need for improvement.



    I have used probably most of the waxes, polishes, and compounds available in north america, europe and asia, many are the same products just re-labled possibly a color or scent added. If I can be of help in a product choice feel free to contact me. That said there is no best of anything, just different products adapted to different realities. Sometimes the least expensive product greatly outperforms the Boutique product, but because of stellar marketing, and peer pressure(yes it exists here too, not just the schoolyard) a product is percieved to be better. The needs of a professional detailer are very differnet than those of a person doing detailing for personal satisfaction. many pro detailers that I coach and communicate with on a regular basis refer to certain rituals(like the 2 bucket method) as Autopian, meaning they are way over the needs of the product or situation, but someone doing this as a hobby has the luxury of taking the time or resources to do so.



    I Agree with you that when one takes the time to do a search everything that possibly could be said about ONR probably has, and as you stated I am not offering anything new about ONR, and never had the intention to. I offer ONR as a solution to a problem that is a reality, water is a finite resource, and water consumption is not the only consideration, waste is possibly an even larger one. When I see pictures of a car covered in foam, I cringe, all those suds will eventually make there way into public ataerways, and if you take the time to do a litle search on the effects of Phosphates(contained in car wash soaps for example) on our waterways, you may reconsider your need to see your car covered in foam. many gouvernaments and loby groups put the weight on the sholders of detailers, but in any given city I am pretty sure there are many more home car washes done per day than those done by detailers.



    Concerning Optimum, or any other product I may reccomned, I am a satisfied customer, and occaisionaly participate in testing of new products. I do not sell products, nor recieve any compensation from any supplier(I pay just like everyone else).
    At Your Service



    Yvan




  13. #13

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    Thank you for a very informative post!
    My profession and obsession

  14. #14

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    I appreciate your enthusiasm, but that picture you show is practically worthless, as it doesn`t show any sort of harsh light directed at the paint surface.



    You state that washing in the traditional way will cause swirling, whereas the ONR wash will not. However, you then go on to explain how ridiculously careful you are when you use the ONR. I guarantee you that ANY wash with a viable car wash soap will yield the same results if you use the same methods.



    Also, you state that the polymers prevent swirling/marring. How do you know you`re not just seeing the results of light fillers? You concede that the ONR is leaving protection...perhaps a wipedown with isopropyl alcohol after washing would provide a clearer picture of what`s going on.



    I have no doubt that you can wash with ONR without introducing swirls. However, I`ve been washing the "old fashioned way" for 18 years without incident. On my latest vehicle, I am unable to find ANY marring under sunlight after weekly hose washes. It`s all about how you do it.



    Now if you`re mainly touting the environmental benefits of ONR, then agreed - it uses much less water than a conventional wash. Regardless, whenever someone starts telling me how great their ONR or waterless wash is, I take a look at their wheel wells and the barrels of their rims, and the story tells itself. The vehicle on the front page of your website proves my point. Unless you`re willing to get pretty nasty using ONR, it`s much easier to clean the "dirty" parts of a car like wheels, etc. with more traditional methods. As long as that hose is out, it`s easier to me to just do the entire car that way.

  15. #15

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    There are very few instances where ONR is inferior to traditional soap, APCs, pressure washers etc. On very dirty and unmaintained vehicles it is faster and more thorough to use traditional methods. For properly maintained vehicles (bi-weekly or monthly), ONR is faster and just as effective. As a professional, the benefits of ONR are substantial. I usually do not have to carry a pressure washer or APC sprayer. I can also wash in my customer`s garages. This is especially important in the winter here in NOVA, where it can get a bit cold and windy. Not to mention the green aspects of the product. I agree that some are resistant to adopting new technology, especially in detailing. That is fine; everyone is entitled to use what they want. I do think it is unfair though to doubt and criticize the poster for having a vision.
    Brad Will- Owner

    Reflections Auto Salon LLC

 

 
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