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  1. #31

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    15951, Ok, I can see you are informed on the topic. Can’t see from your profile where you are from, but I double dare you to come here to So California and go tell the surfers you think that discharging the waste from the washing machine is the same as discharging into the Storm Drain (and to the Ocean, and drives the surfers nuts because they can’t surf at the best times, around storms, because of Storm Water Run Off).



    Just so I understand you, you are saying that discharge from a car wash into the Storm Drain is the same as taking my towels, where all the waste is captured, and washing them as a professional in a commercial facility prepared to handle the waste, or even as a DIY that uses the home washing machine without getting caught by the wife †where it is discharged into the sanitary sewer, and off to a treatment plant?



    I have 2 sets of neighbors, the old timers that do pull the car onto the front yard and wash away, swear, drives me nuts as I am fortunate to live in a nice neighborhood, but not as much as my knuckleheaded neighbors who hire the illegal immigrant to come in my alley and wash without a capture mat! Swear, a couple of each every week.



    I think you are inappropriately defining non point source, as I understand it †the laundry is not non point source pollution, as it goes into the controlled environment. Definition from the EPA site

    Q: What is nonpoint source pollution?



    A: Nonpoint source (NPS) pollution, unlike pollution from industrial and sewage treatment plants, comes from many diffuse sources. NPS pollution is caused by rainfall or snowmelt moving over and through the ground. As the runoff moves, it picks up and carries away natural and human-made pollutants, finally depositing them into lakes, rivers, wetlands, coastal waters, and even our underground sources of drinking water. These pollutants include:

    †Excess fertilizers, herbicides, and insecticides from agricultural lands and residential areas;

    †Oil, grease, and toxic chemicals from urban runoff and energy production;

    †Sediment from improperly managed construction sites, crop and forest lands, and eroding streambanks;

    †Salt from irrigation practices and acid drainage from abandoned mines;

    †Bacteria and nutrients from livestock, pet wastes, and faulty septicsystems;

    Atmospheric deposition and hydromodification are also sources of nonpoint source pollution.



    Now, you want to get technical? The City of Calabasas, CA, on the commercial mobile detailers is requiring Permits to operate and have standards that require the operator to utilize a waterless product or wash mat to capture and properly dispose of the waste water (I think it is considered hazardous waste, btu that is a whole other can of really bad worms). The reason they did this is they feared the new NPDES permit would allow the State Water Control board to fine them. The City Attorney’s reasoning is that when the SWCB takes TMDL (Total Daily Maximum Load) readings the Non Source Pollutants would cause above limit findings †and fine the City $10,000 per day. True story.



    Lastly, the State of Washington requires you to move the car to the front lawn, except if you use a waterless product †again, true story, as they believe it kills Salmon. Did you ever look for the Pudget Sound Study funded by Brown Bear Car Wash?

    -jim

  2. #32

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    May 2008
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    Toyota guy, do you professionally detail here in the OC?



    Do you collect your waste water?

  3. #33

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    Jul 2004
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    Jim,



    All great information. It`s nice to have a discussion with someone that knows their stuff.



    Many states are dealing with the nonpoint source issues you bring up (not being able to surf after storm events due to pollution, etc.). Some cities are retrofitting the stormwater system to include pretreatment in "stormwater parks" and similar systems to clean the water before it`s discharged. As you know, this is of more importance in coastal communities and near bodies of freshwater that are used for discharge.



    Here`s some good info on one in case you`re interested: http://epa.gov/region4/water/nps/FL/...astianPark.pdf



    I don`t think we disagree, we just live in different places that handle these issues differently. By way of example, detailers doing work in commercial parking lots would drain to on-site detention or exfiltration before pollutants could make their way off-site. Systems are maintained in order to clean these contaminants out as necessary.



    In any case, I appreciate the discussion. It`s interesting to hear what others are doing to address these issues.

  4. #34

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    Feb 2005
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    Helsinki, Finland
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    I live in a climate where road salt is used and I would never rely on just using ONR or any waterless product. How do you wash the undercarriage or wheel wells properly without a hose? The surface dirt that I can see is what concerns me the least..

  5. #35

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    May 2008
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    mark 77. You wash the undercarriage with water, no doubt.



    Yvan can respond netter to how water $mart handles road salt.



    In both cases water $mart says us the appropriate amount of water in all cases, and most can reduce teh amount used and still acheive results.



    Are you saying that you never use ONR nor a "waterless` solutions? That I would take issue with.



    -jim

  6. #36

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    May 2008
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    15951, yes, nice menatal joust with you, enjoy some intellectual stimulation aside from "hey, don`t you scratch a car?".



    I live in Region 8, their permit is out for public review, almost done with my comments. LA Ragion out soon, mother of all. You think they will be restrictive on Mobile Detailers, you should be in the contruction industry ... this low impact development stuff is a bear.



    Good Luck,



    jim

  7. #37

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    ONR is the closest to waterless that I ever would go when I wash the exterior and I use it if the car has only light dirt on it. It`s a great product, but not a complete replacement for a hose.

  8. #38

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    Jun 2007
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    Wow, I thought I knew a thing or two about being environmentally responsible. This thread has breathed new insight for me, thank you those contributing to the discussions.

  9. #39

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    Dec 2007
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    Mr Rumble,



    Thanks, and if you ever come out to the eastern townships fell free to contact me, I am just off hwy 10 at exit 68. That goes for anyone, the shop door is always open(figurativly in these temps)
    At Your Service



    Yvan




  10. #40

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    thanks all for contributing - learning loads as well. Its interesting to compare US & Canadian legal and social context with the UK.



    In the UK we have PPG13 that applies to businesses but have yet to see anything other than broad hosepipe bans during extreme dry spells in recent summers.



    Keep it coming :2thumbs:

  11. #41
    Superior Shine's Avatar
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    Less (very appropriate name by the way)



    I have been in the automotive industry for 30+ years. First in the collision then mechanical now detailing. I have numerous certifications and have taken many classes seminars, etc in each field. As a business owner I have detailed almost everything that would take a shine or needed to be cleaned. My 2.5 manned operation grossed very close to $200K last year working 224 days.



    I know a fool when I see one.



    I have partnered with Yvan recently. Why, because he is the real deal and my association with him will greatly benefit me and my business.



    He has taken the time and money and researched to an great (if not obsessive) extent. I am hard headed (much like yourself) but not stupid. I have challenged Yvan on many things were we disagree.



    He has never had anything to sale me. It is not to his benefit to get me to think his way other than for the good of the industry which mean the good of the environment.



    I have slowly accepted his findings after I tested certain things for myself. We still disagree on a few things but he has challenged me to think outside of the box and take my 19+ business to higher standards while doing less work and making more money.



    The worst part about my partnership with Yvan is realizing I have been doing somethings the hard way all this time.



    Superior Shine now has environmentally sound practices in place and the new processes have increased what I put in my pocket from the time we save in labor a good $12+ an hour.



    How would you like to increase what you put in your pocket by $12 almost over night?



    I repeatably tell him that posting on this forum (for free!) he is casting pearls before swines in some cases.





    I thought in important to defend somebody I know to be genuine but I actually give a rats arse if I change you mind. :cooleek:
    The second mouse gets the cheese!

  12. #42

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    JosÃ



    Thank you for the kind words.



    Josà is one of the rare long time detailers that, while chalenging progress to a point, has accepted it, and in some cases even embraced change. As he stated he has shined just about anything that will take a shine, and that include numerous exotics, planes(Air Force One), boats, RV`s, buses motorcycles, and probably even a train. HE is one of the most talented detailers I have ever met, and one heck of a funny guy.



    Where he shines as a business person(other than his stand up comic personality) is his ability to keep his business on the cutting(polishing) edge. IF more detailers and hobbists were like JosÃ, threads like tis would be filled with positive actions and helping commentaries. Together we all win divided we all lose.



    I have recieved many PM`s and E-Mail regarding this thread, and I thank all that have manifested an interest, but because of some peoples negative comments these people are not comfortable posting for the public to see. Hopefully in time to come those that post positive actions to help keep our trade/hobby alive and thriving will not be attacked by those who consider change a negitive action.
    At Your Service



    Yvan




  13. #43

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    Dec 2003
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    Yvan and Joe,



    Thank you both for your continued posting. I am enjoying the fact that this thread is enjoying a huge following.



    Using some of the techniques that Yvan shared with me last year, I was able to complete a 2 hr. detail today and the customer thought $100 was too low- I worked it alone. If I shared with Yvan what I did, he would agree with my customer, but I am fine with that figure. Furthermore, and most important to me, I was not tired, dirty, wet, etc. My area of work was spotless compared to what it looked like years ago.



    Now, if I could pick up Joe`s delivery skills I could really make some money by doing stand up!



    In all seriousness, with water being a finite resource, whether we agree or disagree to water usage in this business, procedures are changing. Unlike the dinosaurs, I am changing with the times and adapting to my environment and business climate.



    Yvan, thank you for taking the time to post and I hope that you continue. I have been here and on other forums since `95, have published articles in PC and D, and have attended a few professional detail schools and trade shows- I also believe strongly in anything Joe says- I have seen his work! You are a leader and a success in this business. Listening to you has only put more money in my pocket and made my work easier at the same time. Keep it up!



    Rob Regan

    Auto Detailing Teacher

    Santa Barbara, CA

  14. #44

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    Rob



    Thanks for the kind words, I share by passion, and truly believe that together the detailing community can make a difference, and should!



    As for your detail, for a person of you experiance, knowledge, and skill, $50 per hour is giving your customer a late christmas present. I know your customer has realized this and will reccomend you to all his entourage, so in a way iot`s innexpensive marketing.
    At Your Service



    Yvan




  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superior Fine
    Less (very appropriate name by the way)



    I have been in the automotive industry for 30+ years. First in the collision then mechanical now detailing. I have numerous certifications and have taken many classes seminars, etc in each field. As a business owner I have detailed almost everything that would take a shine or needed to be cleaned. My 2.5 manned operation grossed very close to $200K last year working 224 days.



    I know a fool when I see one.



    I have partnered with Yvan recently. Why, because he is the real deal and my association with him will greatly benefit me and my business.



    He has taken the time and money and researched to an great (if not obsessive) extent. I am hard headed (much like yourself) but not stupid. I have challenged Yvan on many things were we disagree.



    He has never had anything to sale me. It is not to his benefit to get me to think his way other than for the good of the industry which mean the good of the environment.



    I have slowly accepted his findings after I tested certain things for myself. We still disagree on a few things but he has challenged me to think outside of the box and take my 19+ business to higher standards while doing less work and making more money.



    The worst part about my partnership with Yvan is realizing I have been doing somethings the hard way all this time.



    Superior Shine now has environmentally sound practices in place and the new processes have increased what I put in my pocket from the time we save in labor a good $12+ an hour.



    How would you like to increase what you put in your pocket by $12 almost over night?



    I repeatably tell him that posting on this forum (for free!) he is casting pearls before swines in some cases.





    I thought in important to defend somebody I know to be genuine but I actually give a rats arse if I change you mind. :cooleek:




    $12 per hour increased profit? Ok, let`s say I believe you and do the math.



    2.5 men x 8 hour days x 224 days = 4,480 hours worked by your business. If you increase profits by $12 per hour, then your total gain is 4,480 x $12 = $53,760



    Therefore, you would have to match this years performance every year for the next five years just to break even on the $250K research and development investment.



    Except, according to Yvan, he`s putting in at least $100K more in each one of those years. So you will NEVER get ahead.



    Even further, in your own words, the $12 goes in YOUR pocket. Not Yvan`s. So how exactly does Yvan get a return on his investment?



    I`m not trying to be difficult here. I just want Yvan to tell me how he spent $250K.



    He`s either very rich and very stupid, a complete liar, or a very creative accountant.

 

 
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