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  1. #16

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    15951



    Thanks for your reply. When the sun returns I will gladly take a pic for you in the harshest light I have, sun over snow, and you will see the same result. For your reference in our shop we have flourocents , metal hylide, and halogen, and we see much more in our shop than we do in any other light(including direct sunlight).



    Secindly as far as using OBNR I am probably the least carefull user on here, I use only 1 bucket and wash 4-6 cars with the same bucket, so you may have mistaken me for someone else.For the waterless wash what I described may seem long but in reality it`s much faster and thorogh than wet washes.



    To follow up on you questions the product we use does not fill in scratches, I know this because I make it, and secondly we get the same reaction from potential customers, so I regularly wipe off sections with wax remover to expose the underlying surface, and there is no difference..



    You are more than correct in your statement that it`s all in how you do it, and like anything there is no wrong or right way to do things.



    In every discussion when speaking of watersmart techniques the wheel wells are brought into question(in a sort of "gotcha" sentiment) , and we have very effective ways of dealing with those, the best being steam. But ONR with brushes works quite well too. That said the average customer(not an Autopian) could care less about the wheel wells. Where we are located we deal not only with dirt, but with salt, sand and slush on and under the cars. For this we use a staem pressure washer that gives us 330 degree steam at 250 psi and 1/2 GPMand we use this on the rocker pannels, rear bumper, and wheel wells, but for the rest of the car we still use ONR or Water less, for 3 reasons, first is speed, second is profit, and third is the environment. I am above all abusiness owner responsable for keeping my company alive which supports over 50 families. Going down a greener path has the added benifit of bringing in more "green" (Brown in Canada).



    Once again I would like to take the time to repeat the there is no wrong or right way. We all live different circumsatnaces, and realities, adn my posting is just in the hope of helping someone possibly realise a more effective way for them to do things. Remember that the earth you live on is just loaned to you by your children and grandchildren, so do your best to give back to them in better shape than when your parents gave it back to you.
    At Your Service



    Yvan




  2. #17

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    I agree with 15951, the pictures that Yvan has posted don`t tell the whole story. I would like to see some before, during, and after pics with some intense lighting aimed directly at the paint. These pics, (and others that Yvan has posted in various ONR threads), don`t show the true condition of the paint before & after ONR washing.



    I dont` want to start another ONR war here. But I`m convinced that a swirl-free wash is virtually impossible, by any method. Because of the fact that each car is different, and the wide threshold for human error, there is no such thing as a "perfect wash". Anyone who says that they wash cars and *NEVER* introduce a defect is lying. It`s an inevitable part of life. When there is dirt on paint, and you apply pressure or agitation, there is ALWAYS going to be the risk of marring.



    You can reduce this risk with better, slower, and more careful techniques. You can also lower it by using better wash soaps with more lubrications. In my opinion, (and probably that of most people), ONR provides LESS lubricity than regular soap and has a higher margin for error.



    I would bet anything that if we took a poll right now and asked people to choose between a traditional wash, or an ONR wash the traditional wash would win by a wide margin. Especially if we stipulate that the only factor for making your decision is wash quality and you can ignore factors like cost, time, water usage, and weather.



    Also, Yvan. You contradict yourself many times, and I`m finding your arguments to be less and less credible.



    $250K for Research & Development on car detailing products? Come on dude! You`re going to have to provide some proof, or at least some anecdotal evidence to support that claim.



    Your words:

    I have used probably most of the waxes, polishes, and compounds available in north america, europe and asia,



    If that`s the case, then make up your mind and pick one. Why continue to drop a quarter mil on your "testing". Especially since you claim to already have your own recipe for most detailing products.



    Also, you push ONR pretty heavily, which is fine. We all have our favorite products. But you also mention that you don`t personally use it (because you are "lazy" and want something with more lubricity) but instead use something that you developed yourself. If your stuff is so great, then why not sell it to the public and try to make back some of your $250K.

  3. #18

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    I would bet anything that if we took a poll right now and asked people to choose between a traditional wash, or an ONR wash the traditional wash would win by a wide margin. Especially if we stipulate that the only factor for making your decision is wash quality and you can ignore factors like cost, time, water usage, and weather.



    The problem with this logic is that traditional washing methods are going to keep changing in many cities. Some do not even allow mobile detailers anymore. Some do not allow ANY washing in your own driveway..I have a customer in Westlake Village that can not use a hose due to his neighborhood association. Maybe more people would choose traditional vs. ONR, but ignoring those facts is not an option in many areas as stated. If you took a poll years ago about buffing vs. clay to remove surface contaminants, most would have chosen the buffer. Times change, but sometimes traditional methods take longer. A poll shows current beliefs or ideals, but doesn`t make one way more correct than another.



    What we should do is pool our $$$ and send these products to an independent R and D facility for testing. Same with microfiber- have a test run where they apply the same pressure to a panel and see the results. Big surprise I bet!!



    Having known Yvan and a few others that are using ONR and his product, I am satisfied with what they do. He runs a business while many here detail for a hobby so maybe the two avenues of thought are so diverse that they can`t become congruent in beliefs and ideals of washing/detailing??



    I was not successful for a long time because I ran my detail operation from a "detailers" point of view, not from a business owner`s.



    I`m still learning, but after trying new methods over the last year and evaluating cost, time, labor, and the final product, I have changed dramatically. Years ago I blasted any waterless product, but that was from my own ignorance of not understanding modern paints and products.



    What would be fun would be for David or someone to post "archives" of discussions from years ago that would make us all laugh. Perhaps, this will be true of this topic years from now.



    It`s 65 deg. today and sunny! Great day to be outside and enjoying family and friends!



    Rob Regan

  4. #19

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    Less



    Thanks again for the continuiing debate.



    To answer a few of your interogations here goes.



    You are very correct in saying that any wash method has the potential to induce marring, it all comes down to the person doing the wash. As I have stated before this thread is not to put down any particular method, or add value to another, I posted it to bring forward that there are different ways of doing things, taht are more respectfull of our environment, and before doing a certain opperation think what the concequesces of your actions are, and are you using the best method for the situation.



    I believe Rob answered your poll question with brio! Just like anything in life things evolve and realities adjust to the current situation. 15 years ago you would have polled a group of auto enthusasts about Porche having a 4x4, or Cadilac having a pick up truck you would have been laughed out of the room.



    For my R&D budget, I see no where where I have contradicted myself. My business model is such that I can afford, and I find it pertinent to spend such sums of money. I fell no need to justify my spending, the people concerned (my franchisees) are very satified with our R&D programm and it`s results. Just so we are clear the whole sum is not spent on detailing supplies, but to advance every aspect of our offerings.



    The reason I do not make up my mind on a product and stick with it for the rest of my life is that I run a business. It`s my phylosiphy that a business that does not move forward, is moving backwards, standing still is not an option. I am always looking for a better mouse trap, and as long as companies keep improving there products I will keep validating my choices. I only make 4 products, I do not make a complete line of detailing products, and have no intention to.



    I do not feel that I push ONR, yes we use it when the situation warrents it`s use. I would invite you to re-read my postings nowhere did I state that ONR lack lubricity, nor did I say I do not use ONR(infact in the original post I gave the percentage of cars we do woth the product, 35%). What I found was lacking in glide(not to be confused with lubricity, different animals) was water less wash products. This was the priimary reason for developing mine, someone washing cars all day tires of a product that requires effort to glide the towel across the paint. While most products on the market are designed to be used in a consumer setting, I designed mine with the professional in mind, the person using it all day. Once again the product is not as important as the result, and for the results I must also take into consideration my employees, profit, time used, and consumer perception.



    I do not sell my products retail for a few reasons. First and formost I am a franchiser, and for the same reason you can`t go to the grocery store and purchase Mc, Donalds meat patties to cook at home, you can`t buy my products, they have been designed to give my franchisee`s exclusive product for there use. The money I invest in R&D is made before I spend it so there is no need to make it back, and when I say invest I do mean invest, as the ROI for R&D is tangable, and important for my business model.



    As Rob so eloquently stated the business of detailing, and the hobby of detailing are different activities, and in some aspect may never converge. For myself I am in the business of detailing, and every aspect of the business needs to be constantly reviewed and updated to stay ahead of the competition.



    I thank you again for the continuing debate, and remember that ther is no right or wrong way of doing detailing, just ways that best fit your ideals and circumstance.
    At Your Service



    Yvan




  5. #20

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    Seeing as "going green" is more fashionable today than ever, eco-friendly detailing

    should, at least, sound better to customers...

  6. #21

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    Flashtime..correct!



    Around the coastal areas I believe people are more concerned with ecology, or seem to be. When I asked my Cleveland, Ohio uncle where the recycling was, he stated, "Recycling? What is that for? There`s the trash!" I do not wish to generalize here because that is not true of each person in Browns country, but coastal communities see their beaches close down when it rains due to pollution and that was not the case when I was a kid only 30 yrs. ago.



    Some use it too much..."Our products are biodegradable." I used to think that actually meant something, but how many bases and acids are really NOT biod. over time? I think using products that put zero water in the storm drains/water table-creeks-oceans is the way to go here. Not only that, but business wise, I can wash a car and have the glass look better than any cleaner I have ever used in about 15 min. with less labor and equipment! Note: I`m on the coast of CA. and we don`t have snow, ice, or rain for that matter!



    I`m surprised actually with the way in which many Autopians take care of their cars that they would even need a "soap" to wash their cars.



    I spoke last year to a Porsche Club at the dealership and the best looking ones were done without soaps. The one I detailed for a show at Trump National only gets detail sprays- nothing else. The paint was flawless.



    My guess is that aggressive marketing has many buying more than they need. I am now 39 and am not the same consumer I was 15 yrs. ago. Some guys pay $5 per towel and others pay $1.67 and both will say they get good results.



    In the end, what should matter is that as members of the planet, we should be doing what we can to protect and preserve it--just like we do with our cars. How you or I do that will differ, but we can still get the same results IMO and do what is right.



    Rob Regan

    Auto Detailing Teacher

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Less
    Yvan,





    So far, what you`ve posted on this thread is no more information than one could find by reading this site for less than two hours. Everything you`ve said about ONR has already been said, by many people, many times.



    So please put that $50K to some good use and tell us something we don`t already know.




    That has to be the dumbest request I have ever heard in my life. A guy spends countless hours and lots of $$$ to test and find and/or develop products that meet his needs and then he is just suppose to share them with you because you asked? I`d give you the finger if it were me.
    The second mouse gets the cheese!

  8. #23

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    So â€

    When I debate someone on the “waterless†or water $mart, I typically request that the debater share the level of experience. If they have not actively engaged in experimentation, and tried at least one or preferably several options, it is just not worth the level of effort. Oen favorite quote is “Do not try to make pigs sing †frustrates you and annoys the pigâ€. No offense to pigs.



    There are some that no matter what evidence is shared, they refuse to believe. For me, a water 4mart model works great. My customers love it, and it allows me to get into places wither traditionally not available to the Amenity (Airports, Malls) or is allowing me and others to quickly replace the traditional wash in places like Class A Office. In December, big class A Office that did extensive “greening†in 2008, tried to work with the onsite Car Wash & Detailer that paid $250,000 a year &  ago to adopt the model. Well, looks like they will have to pry the pressure washer from his hands when his 30 day cancelation notice comes due.



    And, personally, based on professional observations and my gut, this model, like it or not, will evolutionize the way Mobile Detailing is done. I think it is more cost effective to enter the industry, and a more cost effective way to achieve compliance when the bucket & hose guy has to go out to buy a wash mat, reclamation system, waste water tank and a dedicate time to properly discharge the waste.



    Recently, in the State of Washington, the Department of Ecology took a position on Home Car Washing. At first they had to clarify they were not banning the Home Wash, but that if you wanted to wash your car at home, you had to move it from the driveway / street onto the landscape (grass). A group of us Water $mart guys have been talking. One major supplier lived within 30 minutes, went over and did a demo of his “waterless†product. Result: If you like it or not, if you want to bucket & hose your car in the State of Washington †pull it on the grass. Or †pick up your bottle of your favorite waterless product and have at it. What’s that you say “It’s really cold hereâ€, why then move the car from the driveway into the garage, and enjoy your time spent in relative comfort?



    Wheels †well, at least I haven’t seen the “hey, what about the off road vehicleâ€. But wheels are a challenge with this model. Not all, but yes a BMW that has not been taken care of can sometimes take as much time on rims as the whole rest of the car. One company I am working with out of San Diego had some “ecovation†and developed a foam mat to go around a tire so I can get a little “sloppyâ€, squirt a little more, use brushes, and have the foam barrier catch the drips and run off. (Did same for Eco Engine Detailing, a wash mat to catch the drips, wipe with towel to contain waste). Has helped speed and quality of result. But, for the sake of this debate, what if I concede that rims are more of a challenge than the bucket & hose, that even sometimes quality suffers †hands down the Water $mart solutions win over traditional if you choose to follow best management practices, meet or exceed local codes / ordinances and care about the environment.



    If you are a professional, I believe that this model offers the most economical and quality result available, and cannot understand any argument that says I will not carry it, nor ever use it. Just not logical †you are free to debate to the extent you will use it, but not the if. For the DIY, I think they will find it a fixture in the garage. Meguiar’s says that there are 2.8 products per garage in the US. I believe sometime in the future, 1 will be a waterless product.



    In my opinion,

    -jim

  9. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Relaited
    Recently, in the State of Washington, the Department of Ecology took a position on Home Car Washing. At first they had to clarify they were not banning the Home Wash, but that if you wanted to wash your car at home, you had to move it from the driveway / street onto the landscape (grass).


    I`ve seen various jurisdictions starting to require this, and it makes ZERO sense. They are requiring people to discharge pollutants from washing directly into the soil, rather than to have it go through the engineered storm drain system for treatment before discharge.



    It`s a matter of idiots at the helm, IMO. Despite my tone, I`m truly in support of taking measures to reduce environmental impacts, but let`s be realistic here. Does anyone really believe that car washing is causing any sort of measurable impact on the environment? Speaking for myself, I am one of maybe 5 of 150 homeowners in my neighborhood that even has the ambition to wash their own car. I`m betting rainwater runoff carries more pollutants from cars (through fluids leaked on pavement, etc.) than washing ever could.



    It`s also funny to think that people use waterless washes to conserve the environment, but then go inside to run their dishwasher, take long showers, irrigate their lawns, etc. Talk about picking on one very minute piece of the puzzle.

  10. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by 15951
    I`ve seen various jurisdictions starting to require this, and it makes ZERO sense. They are requiring people to discharge pollutants from washing directly into the soil, rather than to have it go through the engineered storm drain system for treatment before discharge.



    It`s a matter of idiots at the helm, IMO. Despite my tone, I`m truly in support of taking measures to reduce environmental impacts, but let`s be realistic here. Does anyone really believe that car washing is causing any sort of measurable impact on the environment? Speaking for myself, I am one of maybe 5 of 150 homeowners in my neighborhood that even has the ambition to wash their own car. I`m betting rainwater runoff carries more pollutants from cars (through fluids leaked on pavement, etc.) than washing ever could.



    It`s also funny to think that people use waterless washes to conserve the environment, but then go inside to run their dishwasher, take long showers, irrigate their lawns, etc. Talk about picking on one very minute piece of the puzzle.


    It depends on the sewer systems. Where I live we have combined sewers, which means that the rain from the streets and the poo from your toilet goes to the same line and to the water treatment facility before dumping to the Detroit River. There are a handful of drains in parking lots and streets that drain directly to the river or nearby creek. These are labeled as so.



    Now, most communities around the country do not use this style of system. Therefore your toilet and house drains go to the treatment plant and rain run off from the streets go to the waterways.



    The reason they tell you to wash it on the grass is because the vegetation acts as a filter for your washes. It`s so much better than having it go to the waterways where is will spread at a fast rate.

  11. #26

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    15951 ... for the record. I have a Smart Timer for my irrigation, installed by my local Water Board as a pilot because I am so active in water. Both in conservation and in controlling run off. I was brushing my teeth the other day, got lost in a thought, and my 3.5 year old daughter comes running and and yells “Daddy, save some water for the worldâ€. Proud moment. I post on another forum, if you find it, you will see the topics I champion. I could go on.



    I spell water $mart with a $ for a reason. Although I am passionate, and think water is the new oil, and hope in 2 years to be elected to my water board, I am no tree hugger. There us money to be made as an Eco Detailer!



    Yes I do believe that Car Washing is a contributor to Urban and Storm Run off. If you do not, then drink the run off, dare you to drink it even if diluted! Or, if you would like to get educated, search for the Pudget Sound Car Wash Study †kills fish.



    If you are a professional Detailer, or even if not, go down to your City, ask for the Water Quality person who represents the jurisdiction to the NPDES Permit and share your thoughts with them. If you do, I would like you to come back here and share how your thinking is received.



    -jim

  12. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superior Fine
    That has to be the dumbest request I have ever heard in my life. A guy spends countless hours and lots of $$$ to test and find and/or develop products that meet his needs and then he is just suppose to share them with you because you asked? I`d give you the finger if it were me.


    Hold on a second. Let`s recap the actual conversation here and see if my request is actually the "dumbest ever"



    Yvan says - "I spend tons of money researching this stuff"



    Then he says - "Here is what I know about rinseless and waterless washes", but he doesn`t say anything that hasnt` been said before.



    Since he decided to boast about his R&D budget in the same breath as his "education" about ONR, wouldn`t a reasonable person suspect the two thoughts to be related? Maybe it`s just me, but his post seemed to imply that the information he was providing was the result of his epic R&D budget. Therefore it seems perfectly reasonable to ask "Tell me something I don`t already know".



    If I did indeed make the "Dumbest request ever", then that means that Yvan cleverly used this forum to reiterate (for the umpteenth time) how ONR works. Then for some mysteriously egomaniacal and self-indulgent reason, decided to mention his fat R&D wallet. If that`s the case, then I concede that I made "the dumbest request ever"



    And i`m calling BS on Yvan about his quarter million dollar a year research. Knowing what I know about car detailing, business management, cash flow, accounting, and taxes (Bachelor`s in accounting, Masters in Business Management, and 10 years executive experience), I simply don`t believe it. The $250K is either a complete lie, or the result of some EXTREMELY creative accounting.



    Think about it folks. You could buy a sample (or even full size bottle) of just about every polish, wax, glaze, pad, buffing machine, and cleaner on the market. Then you could buy a brand new car (or three), EVERY YEAR, just to test the stuff on. On top of that, you could pay yourself a decent salary, and STILL not even be close to $250K. Now consider the fact that your business focuses very heavily on environmentally friendly products, and the number of items on your testing agenda get slashed heavily.



    Also think about this. The pros out there can attest to the amount of time involved, cost, and expected revenue/profit on doing a car detail. How much more profitable would each job have to be just to break even on that $250K investment over the course of a year?



    As I said, Yvan is either lying, or has a VERY good accountant. I *might* believe that the $250K is made up of allocated `sunk` costs. In other words, if I spend half my time "testing" new products, then I can allocate half of my rent, utilities, salary, insurance, and overhead costs to "Research and Development". But those are really `sunk` costs, since you have to pay them anyway even if you sat in your shop all day with your thumb up your butt. In other words, I didn`t really "spend" that money on R&D, I just allocated it since that is what I spent my time on. If I had spent that time detailing cars, then those costs would be part of my normal job costs.



    Or for example, let`s say I buy a whole bunch of new products and *give* them to my franchisees to test. Then I suppose I could write the costs of those products off as R&D expenses, but it just means that the profit margin on each job is going to be higher because the materials were free.



    If the $250K is just the result of some creative allocations of inherent business costs, then I might believe you Yvan. But if you`re telling me that you already have a business with sufficient profit to spend $250K ON TOP of your regular business expenses, I`m calling BS on you.

  13. #28

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    15951



    Just for the record, Relaited has to be one of north americas most water concious people. Like the old saying goes, he has forgoten more about the subject than most will learn.



    For my part I live in the country with a fairly weak well, so water conservation is a part of everyday life. In our shops we have proven to authorities that our busines model is very water wise, in one city they installed 2 water meters, one for the washroom and kithchen facilities, the other for the shop floor, to there surprise(they gave us 1 year zoning leave, and thought they would come shut us down, the excuse bieng water usage) we use more water in the water closet than the shop floor, and that with a low flow toilet and 6-10 employees.



    In my area the concern is not water consumption but waste water management, in particular soaps containing phosphates. When I see pictures of cars covered in foam, that one act creates far more waste phosphates than one ever should. So using waterless wash is very impotant not only for teh water savings, but more for the contamination savings.



    Also like Jim stated going green is a cost savings measure as well, greatly reducing labor(for a legaly opperating mobile detailer its a substantial savings), chemical costs, material costs, and providing a marked advantage when it comes to obtailing contracts such as office building s and teh likes, plus its a nice little marketing advantage(marketing strictly on a green platform is waste of time because of all teh false info, but it`s a heads up).



    Less



    Thank you for your concern regarding my finances, but I am quite happy with teh skills or our accountants, and so was teh gouvernament at there last audit.



    As a business owner I have always allocated a certian percentage of our gross income to R&D. As I have stated previosly spending that amount was far from a hardship, and for me has proven benificial. I have also mentioned that detailing is not the only spending for our R&D, we have also invested in developing a paint touch up system using waterbased paint, a windshiled repair system(and if you have ever delt with maling molds for proptotypes for plastic parts, and machine shop time for prototypes you are well aware of how fast an invoice can climb). My reasoning s for including the fact that I spend money on R&D were to dispell the eventual calls of, where did you learn that, how do you know ect. I care to point out that you are the one that asked for a dollar figure(a true CPA). To put your mind at ease, the money spent is not only on materilas, but takes into account the wages of my staff that do the trials(though I do participate heavily), the subs that fabricate prototypes, the lab tests, and the rent for the shop we do the R&D in.



    Please take the time to review our web site(in french, but you will get the idea), we are Canada`s largest automobile reconditioning chain, with over 40 mobile technicians, plus 8 shops employing from 4 to 12 people each(depending on the city). We have also branched out to Northern Africa, and are negotiating to enter the European market. We are not your small loocal detailing shop.



    My goal is not to belittle anyone, nor do I think I am better or worse than anyone, we all participate on forums to share and learn form each other. I am fortunate to have a prospurous business that has flourished into a large corperation, and in order to stay ahead of the competition we must do what we can to stay ahead, and that includes R&D.



    If you have any firther interogations on my business I invite you to call me or comunicate by PM or e-Mail, it will be my pleasure to speak with you.
    At Your Service



    Yvan




  14. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Relaited
    If you are a professional Detailer, or even if not, go down to your City, ask for the Water Quality person who represents the jurisdiction to the NPDES Permit and share your thoughts with them. If you do, I would like you to come back here and share how your thinking is received.



    -jim


    Good grief. I`m not saying that I turn on all my faucets every evening and flush the toilets every time I walk by them, I just don`t freak out about washing my car twice monthly. The last I checked, I don`t need a NPDES permit for that.



    And by the way, I`m extremely familiar with everything you`re talking about, and I think you and I both know you`re being ridiculous. The nonpoint source pollution I`m generating through using a car wash soap is no more than what you`re doing when you wash your laundry.



    Stormwater discharge from many/most developments in my region require pretreatment before discharge. That`s better than parking my car in the yard when I wash it, which by the way I have never seen anyone do....anywhere. I think environmental awareness is fantastic, and reasonable measures are great. But get real, the net benefit of using ONR and then washing the filthy washrags is probably barely measurable above using a hose and a decent wash liquid.



    Sorry if you disagree...I sip the kool-aid, but I don`t gulp it unless I know it`s good.

  15. #30

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    whats that saying..."whats important to you is not important to me"



    or simply put "to each his own"



    some are water conscious and some are not

 

 
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