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  1. #16
    dansautodetailing.com Stokdgs's Avatar
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    Re: Polish/polishers, time to up my game. Letís talk

    Welcome to the Forum !

    Pad Rotation is what corrects paintwork.. It always has.. This is why all the manufacturers of anything painted in all the auto, boat, truck airplane, ambulance, 18-wheelers, and on and on, use Rotary Power to finish their painted products initially, and on down the assembly line, catch and fix things that either got somehow missed, or happened on the assembly line..

    It takes the Will to want to learn how to use Rotary Power, and then you have to learn either because you are highly motivated and innovative, or all these, and have someone with gray hair mentor you..

    Yes, there are some people who are going out and showing some manufacturers of painted things that these random orbitals of today can actually turn out the same quality as Rotary Power, and I hope they do just that..

    But for things like gelcoat on Boats, Imron, or whatever is the paint today on Airplanes, where you are working hard with a big rotary, grinding that finish down so it is perfect, I seriously doubt that any of these little motor machines would last a week before they blew up from overheating, etc...

    For example, my best friend, the Best Boat Detailer in all of Seattle, WA and the surrounding areas, routinely blows up the biggest baddest DeWalt Rotaries on Boat gelcoat all the time.. And he even got to work directly with DeWalt to help them design things into that big Yellow Beast to help it work better and last longer.. And I have seen his Perfect, Flat, Glossy, Clear, Swirl and Hologram free work on big Black Boats in direct sunlight..Blinding would be putting it mildly..

    Certainly, machines that are not Direct Drive like Rotary machines, will work just fine.. It just may take a lot longer, and perhaps some defects may not want to come out as easy as they do with Rotary Power.. Then, most vibrate a lot. And you may be limited on the size of backing plates and pads..

    A Rotary can use a little spacer ( https://www.autopia-carcare.com/buff...l#.YJCyxdWpH3g) to give you the ability to get into smaller places, see the work easier around the pad, and they make backing plates and pads down to 1 inch/diameter for this machine..

    And contrary to popular belief, you Can use this process to make really clear, flat, glossy, hologram, swirl, etc., free paintwork.. If this were not so, every painted vehicle would come from the factories swirled, hologrammed, etc., all over.. If you have ever watched new vehicles unloaded from the truck at say, your favorite BMW Dealer, then you see perfect, clear, flat, glossy paintwork on those Bimmers straight off the Ship that came from the port, from the Factory in Germany..

    If you are really interested in making this work for your particular needs, expectations, then you will also need to acquire great lighting, good microfiber towels, pads - lots of them, and great cleaners for just these 2 things alone.. Then there are all the other things needed to clean, recondition, etc., all the other parts of the vehicle/s inside, the engine and compartment, the entire trunk, and on and on...

    Good luck with your research and project !
    Dan F

  2. #17
    dwaleke's Avatar
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    Re: Polish/polishers, time to up my game. Letís talk

    Quote Originally Posted by dgage View Post
    The Rupes Mille only has a 5mm throw so not as much correction as a comparable Flex with 8mm of throw.
    Compared to the original 3401 when you combine the orbit and machine speed technically the Mille has greater ability to correct.

    Or at least that`s what I`ve read.

  3. #18
    dwaleke's Avatar
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    Re: Polish/polishers, time to up my game. Letís talk

    Quote Originally Posted by nan_wpg View Post
    i watched this today. It left me confused. On one hand orbit is more important than ďspinĒ and lack of spin doesnít mean lack of cut.

    if thatís the case then why the Mille?

    my takeaway was Mille for ďone polisher onlyĒ. Covers all the bases.

    free spin requires multiple machines.
    It seems Jason Rose is trying hard not to give the advantage to the gear driven tool.

    Like I said above if I could only have one tool I`d pick the Flex XCE. I have many tools and the Flex XCE cordless is the first tool I pick up. You never have to focus on pad rotation.

    If you aren`t holding the gear driven tool properly it tells you so and forces you to hold it right. Otherwise the tool is going to walk all over the place.

    At the end of the day it`s personal preference on what you want to work with. If you feel you made the wrong choice you can always sell it and go the other route.

  4. #19

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    Re: Polish/polishers, time to up my game. Letís talk

    A gear driven tool takes alot of getting use to, so I wouldn`t go that route If you`re looking for ease of use. If your only gong to be polishing your own cars and they aren`t hammered with defects get the rupes 15 or 21 along with their yellow pads. 3d speed gives a great looking finish and won`t stain trim

    End of story. You can thank me later

  5. #20
    wannafbody
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    Re: Polish/polishers, time to up my game. Letís talk

    If you need to do serious correction, a wool pad and rotary are the way to go. The hardest thing is to control splatter. I`d suggest finishing with a foam pad and a random orbit for the best finish. It takes years of practice to finish down hologram free with a rotary.

    I`ve seen a guy with 40+ years experience with a rotary burn through paint. Accidents happen.

    Griots Fast Finishing MF pad is a pretty good pad for moderate correction with a nice finish. I`m actually shocked with how nice a finish it left with a finishing polish.

  6. #21
    dansautodetailing.com Stokdgs's Avatar
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    Re: Polish/polishers, time to up my game. Letís talk

    If you don`t load up a pad with too much of anything wet, and don`t turn it on to higher rpms from the start, you don`t get splatter...

    If you put too much product on the pad and realize it after you started off slow, you should just spread it out farther on the panel, and that will take up more of it so when you might speed up the machine, it will not throw a bunch of product out all over the place..
    Even on the L/C Purple Wool Foam Pads I use only for really hard defects, all Airplane paint, etc...
    I never get splatter because I choose to not make it happen..

    Then, the other end of it - dusting - Why?
    Just don`t let it dry out and then you have no dusting...
    I never get dusting either..

    If one will take the time to almost completely or completely use up all the product on a foam pad and keep the pad flat on the panel the entire time, there is less chance of leaving anything on the paint except perfectly clear, flat, gloss...
    If one sees defects in the paintwork while you are doing it, don`t you want to work on those defects until they are gone ?
    This where great lighting really helps..

    I keep the speed below 1,000, so there is more time for the product, pad, and paint, to get to know each other the longest, and not dry out quickly.. Sometimes when I see the work starting to dry and hear and feel the machine starting to change, I stop and spray a little pad conditioner on the spot and keep going until the everything is about gone on that spot.

    The pad picks up whatever is left, and I take a white clean towel and wipe the pad face down and look at what came off..
    This allows the pad to go longer on the work until it may eventually get too much dead paint etc., in it, and it soaked up too much pad conditioner, product, and it no longer works as when I started, so I change it out..

    The panel I just corrected has very little if any product left on it, so when I wipe it off with a clean soft microfiber, there is very little chance to introduce something onto that spot that I just made perfect.. Less you touch it, the better..
    Dan F

  7. #22
    William_Wallace's Avatar
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    Re: Polish/polishers, time to up my game. Letís talk

    I donít want to make it any harder to select from but makita has a forced rotation that switch back and forth between forced and normal da with a flip of a switch. The only reason I find this nice is if you need a break from controlling the forced rotation or want to zone out for a panel or put a sealant on you donít get the work out of the forced rotation. It is also cheaper than flex or rupes forced machines.
    Likes wannafbody liked this post

  8. #23

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    Re: Polish/polishers, time to up my game. Letís talk

    Quote Originally Posted by Stokdgs View Post
    Welcome to the Forum !

    Pad Rotation is what corrects paintwork.. It always has.. This is why all the manufacturers of anything painted in all the auto, boat, truck airplane, ambulance, 18-wheelers, and on and on, use Rotary Power to finish their painted products initially, and on down the assembly line, catch and fix things that either got somehow missed, or happened on the assembly line..

    It takes the Will to want to learn how to use Rotary Power, and then you have to learn either because you are highly motivated and innovative, or all these, and have someone with gray hair mentor you..

    Yes, there are some people who are going out and showing some manufacturers of painted things that these random orbitals of today can actually turn out the same quality as Rotary Power, and I hope they do just that..

    But for things like gelcoat on Boats, Imron, or whatever is the paint today on Airplanes, where you are working hard with a big rotary, grinding that finish down so it is perfect, I seriously doubt that any of these little motor machines would last a week before they blew up from overheating, etc...

    For example, my best friend, the Best Boat Detailer in all of Seattle, WA and the surrounding areas, routinely blows up the biggest baddest DeWalt Rotaries on Boat gelcoat all the time.. And he even got to work directly with DeWalt to help them design things into that big Yellow Beast to help it work better and last longer.. And I have seen his Perfect, Flat, Glossy, Clear, Swirl and Hologram free work on big Black Boats in direct sunlight..Blinding would be putting it mildly..

    Certainly, machines that are not Direct Drive like Rotary machines, will work just fine.. It just may take a lot longer, and perhaps some defects may not want to come out as easy as they do with Rotary Power.. Then, most vibrate a lot. And you may be limited on the size of backing plates and pads..

    A Rotary can use a little spacer ( https://www.autopia-carcare.com/buff...l#.YJCyxdWpH3g) to give you the ability to get into smaller places, see the work easier around the pad, and they make backing plates and pads down to 1 inch/diameter for this machine..

    And contrary to popular belief, you Can use this process to make really clear, flat, glossy, hologram, swirl, etc., free paintwork.. If this were not so, every painted vehicle would come from the factories swirled, hologrammed, etc., all over.. If you have ever watched new vehicles unloaded from the truck at say, your favorite BMW Dealer, then you see perfect, clear, flat, glossy paintwork on those Bimmers straight off the Ship that came from the port, from the Factory in Germany..

    If you are really interested in making this work for your particular needs, expectations, then you will also need to acquire great lighting, good microfiber towels, pads - lots of them, and great cleaners for just these 2 things alone.. Then there are all the other things needed to clean, recondition, etc., all the other parts of the vehicle/s inside, the engine and compartment, the entire trunk, and on and on...

    Good luck with your research and project !
    Dan F
    I`ve been watching a lot of Brian at Apex Detail`s YT videos lately and he recommends learning the rotary and also those extensions you linked too. I`ll be getting some of those. I went out and bought the $40 rotary he recommends from Harbor Freight and went to a body shop to get some panels to practice on. The paint guy there with about 40 years experience gave me a tour of the place and taught me a lot. He pulled out one of their many rotary machines (that`s all they use) and demonstrated on one of the panels. He started with 2500 grit sand paper and then the Dewalt (they also have Milwaukee) with a wool pad that had dried compound on it. He turned it over, turned it on, and then used a flat head screw driver to clean it. Buffed it out in a few seconds to a mirror finish. I was impressed and am going to hang out there more to learn all I can.
    Likes Stokdgs, noorth liked this post
    Thanks Stokdgs thanked for this post

  9. #24
    wannafbody
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    Re: Polish/polishers, time to up my game. Letís talk

    Quote Originally Posted by William_Wallace View Post
    I don’t want to make it any harder to select from but makita has a forced rotation that switch back and forth between forced and normal da with a flip of a switch. The only reason I find this nice is if you need a break from controlling the forced rotation or want to zone out for a panel or put a sealant on you don’t get the work out of the forced rotation. It is also cheaper than flex or rupes forced machines.

    You probably should list the model number. Makita makes several different RO`s.

  10. #25

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    Re: Polish/polishers, time to up my game. Letís talk

    If your going free spinning go rupes big foot MK series--21mm /w5"pads
    Forced rotation route would be the flex 3401

    These are tried & true machines that the very best detailers use

    As far as no stain products-- I know PA stuff doesn`t stain
    Likes Stokdgs liked this post

  11. #26
    dansautodetailing.com Stokdgs's Avatar
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    Re: Polish/polishers, time to up my game. Letís talk

    jem7sk -- Thanks for your post ! I hope you and yours are all safe and well, and are all getting past this virus thing..
    I have had shot-1 of 2 of the Pfizer vaccine and it was fine.. Worked really hard after the shot, and my upper arm did not hurt until late that night, and then all the next day.. Then the flu-shot-like-pain went away, just the like the flu shot used to do.. I quit getting the flu shot a couple decades ago I think.. Never got the flu either..

    I have not watched Brian at Apex very much, but I hear a lot of positive feedback about him..

    You only need 1 of these spacers for your Rotary.. Yes, you can connect as many as you want, but the spinning physics of the extra length will make it much harder to control the spinning backing plate and pad because of the longer distance to the machine..
    So, you are constantly adjusting for that reaction..

    I have had great success with just that 1 smaller spacer + backing plate + the pad, and that is all I have ever needed.. Easy to work with, and control..

    I only use 5" backing plates and pads for 99% of all the paintwork, except for the small A, B,/C pillars between the side windows, etc... or perhaps that little painted strip across the top of some back glass like my `09 Grand Cherokee, etc.. On those narrow places I switch to a 3 or 4 inch backing plate and pad..

    Auto Paint and Body Shops = been there, done that on the Painting Side of it.. Loved it..

    They are working on the clock, have only so much "time" =$$ to spend on the final compound/polish, clean it up, etc., the Painter/s or their Apprentices, get to do all that final work before the Client picks up the vehicle..

    Some of them can paint just beautifully, and never screw up, and I never worked with any that jacked up the paint at the compound polish stage either..

    The Owners of some shops for some reason, like to take in too much work and make everyone work harder and faster which of course, can lead to some quality control issues, if not caught before the Client arrives..

    Some shops are more "Custom" shops rather than "Production" shops, and the Custom shops usually get more time to really make sure the paint is perfectly applied, and then compounded and polished out perfectly...

    It was a maddening pace at the 2 places I worked at.. Then they introduced the infamous highly toxic urethane paint to the industry and I had to say bye bye..

    I am glad you found a Shop and a nice guy that took the time to show you how compounding with Rotary Power is done !! A very well experienced Mentor is always a great source of learning and hands-on experiences...
    Nothing better... That is how learned this as a kid at my Dad`s shops..

    I loved the work, and was so Blessed to later in life, go back to the very thing I really always wanted to do!! Detailing !!! All of it !!!!!

    Hope you learn much and like it...

    I guess the very Key to success with this big, heavy, powerful, but very smooth running machine is to do what the one of the very best compounds and polishes from 3M way back when, said on the bottle --- you have to learn how to - "Finesse-It".. Smooth movements, control, looking at the work, evaluating it constantly, watching, listening, for changes from the beginning to the end..

    Does it/can it take longer?? Perhaps, depending on so many factors.. There will never be just one, set, way...

    So, if you like to be challenged a little, sometimes more than a little, can handle carrying a 10lb+ weight around all day, while it is spinning and trying to move away from you, this could be fun !
    If you really learn how to - balance - this thing all day long, with it`s weight and torque, and find that great place, I can promise you that you will not be disappointed..

    Good Luck !
    Dan F
    Likes jem7sk liked this post

  12. #27

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    Re: Polish/polishers, time to up my game. Letís talk

    Quote Originally Posted by Stokdgs View Post
    jem7sk -- Thanks for your post ! I hope you and yours are all safe and well, and are all getting past this virus thing..
    I have had shot-1 of 2 of the Pfizer vaccine and it was fine.. Worked really hard after the shot, and my upper arm did not hurt until late that night, and then all the next day.. Then the flu-shot-like-pain went away, just the like the flu shot used to do.. I quit getting the flu shot a couple decades ago I think.. Never got the flu either..

    I have not watched Brian at Apex very much, but I hear a lot of positive feedback about him..

    You only need 1 of these spacers for your Rotary.. Yes, you can connect as many as you want, but the spinning physics of the extra length will make it much harder to control the spinning backing plate and pad because of the longer distance to the machine..
    So, you are constantly adjusting for that reaction..

    I have had great success with just that 1 smaller spacer + backing plate + the pad, and that is all I have ever needed.. Easy to work with, and control..

    I only use 5" backing plates and pads for 99% of all the paintwork, except for the small A, B,/C pillars between the side windows, etc... or perhaps that little painted strip across the top of some back glass like my `09 Grand Cherokee, etc.. On those narrow places I switch to a 3 or 4 inch backing plate and pad..

    Auto Paint and Body Shops = been there, done that on the Painting Side of it.. Loved it..

    They are working on the clock, have only so much "time" =$$ to spend on the final compound/polish, clean it up, etc., the Painter/s or their Apprentices, get to do all that final work before the Client picks up the vehicle..

    Some of them can paint just beautifully, and never screw up, and I never worked with any that jacked up the paint at the compound polish stage either..

    The Owners of some shops for some reason, like to take in too much work and make everyone work harder and faster which of course, can lead to some quality control issues, if not caught before the Client arrives..

    Some shops are more "Custom" shops rather than "Production" shops, and the Custom shops usually get more time to really make sure the paint is perfectly applied, and then compounded and polished out perfectly...

    It was a maddening pace at the 2 places I worked at.. Then they introduced the infamous highly toxic urethane paint to the industry and I had to say bye bye..

    I am glad you found a Shop and a nice guy that took the time to show you how compounding with Rotary Power is done !! A very well experienced Mentor is always a great source of learning and hands-on experiences...
    Nothing better... That is how learned this as a kid at my Dad`s shops..

    I loved the work, and was so Blessed to later in life, go back to the very thing I really always wanted to do!! Detailing !!! All of it !!!!!

    Hope you learn much and like it...

    I guess the very Key to success with this big, heavy, powerful, but very smooth running machine is to do what the one of the very best compounds and polishes from 3M way back when, said on the bottle --- you have to learn how to - "Finesse-It".. Smooth movements, control, looking at the work, evaluating it constantly, watching, listening, for changes from the beginning to the end..

    Does it/can it take longer?? Perhaps, depending on so many factors.. There will never be just one, set, way...

    So, if you like to be challenged a little, sometimes more than a little, can handle carrying a 10lb+ weight around all day, while it is spinning and trying to move away from you, this could be fun !
    If you really learn how to - balance - this thing all day long, with it`s weight and torque, and find that great place, I can promise you that you will not be disappointed..

    Good Luck !
    Dan F
    Thanks for the post Dan! What 5" backing plate and pads do you recommend for the rotary? The guy at the shop mentioned using a polisher in the "old" days that was very heavy and had two handles to hold on too... he said with regular wax and the weight of the machine the cars would come out great. They don`t make it anymore but I have no idea what machine he was talking about... ever seen or used one of those? He talked like it was super heavy.

  13. #28

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    Re: Polish/polishers, time to up my game. Letís talk

    Most ( not all ) of the rotaries are heavy compared to the DA`s i/e Dewalt , 3M , Makita- now my flex is an exception to that as it`s light by comparison
    Likes Stokdgs liked this post

  14. #29

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    Re: Polish/polishers, time to up my game. Letís talk

    Quote Originally Posted by jem7sk View Post
    Thanks for the post Dan! What 5" backing plate and pads do you recommend for the rotary? The guy at the shop mentioned using a polisher in the "old" days that was very heavy and had two handles to hold on too... he said with regular wax and the weight of the machine the cars would come out great. They don`t make it anymore but I have no idea what machine he was talking about... ever seen or used one of those? He talked like it was super heavy.


    A 2 handled Rotary polisher? Does it takes 2 people to operate?I

  15. #30
    A Miracle Detailing Merlin's Avatar
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    Re: Polish/polishers, time to up my game. Letís talk

    For me it`s simple...

    Rupes 21 with a 5" Backing Plate. This is my go-to combo for a tool and BP. Click Here

    I have started using the Rupes "system" Blue, Yellow, White with 5" Pads and matching Polishes.
    Rupes 21 is easy on the body (vs. a forced rotation 3401 etc.), safer on the paint, and does a GREAT job!

 

 
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