Perfection V Originality

[Mr Concours]

What do you guys think to say large multipul marque (large) event giving an unrestored/original car,say a 10 point head start to make it fairer or do you think the fully restored lot would throw all their toys out of the pram?



Thoughts on how this would go down within your own clubs much appreciated.

[MBZ 500E]

I know many would throw a fit if this was allowed simply because a great condition original could beat their big bucks restoration. It would probably drive up the price of a good original condition car too. I know the head judge for MBCA in SoCal, I`ll ask him his opinion and post it here later.



OT: One thing I know MBCA does in their concours street class juding is a point adder for mileage. I believe every 10K miles is worth X amount of points.

[Mr Concours]

MBZ 500E,I guess points for high milage would work well on a modern model streetclass (Porsche springs to mind) but not so well for say, cars over 20 Years old.

[Onehole]

Originally posted by Mr Concours

What do you guys think to say large multipul marque (large) event giving an unrestored/original car,say a 10 point head start to make it fairer or do you think the fully restored lot would throw all their toys out of the pram?



Thoughts on how this would go down within your own clubs much appreciated.

I am not a fan of any type of artificial adjustments to scores. There are just too many exceptions I can point to.



If you adjust for:



Age

Then the person with the recent model daily driver is unfairly disadvantaged. There may have to compete against a much older car that in fact has much lower miles.



Miles

Anyone can take a high mileage car and restore it to better than new. Same with an old car.



Restored Vs Unrestored

If you penalize restored cars, then you are creating a very negative environment that incents people not to fix up their cars. Personally I love to see a prestine fully restored 356 Speedster. I see nothing of interest in a worn out vehicle.



Original Vs Modified

At PCA Zone 8 we do not judge originality. This is a good thing. It allows people with modified cars to come out and show their cars. The more cars the better. So what if the 911 owner has added a GT3 wing on the back. So what if they have added a racing harness for track time. If the owner has prepared the car better then the stock standard 911 next to them, then they should win.



Now don`t get me wrong, I appreciate very much seeing an older vehicle totally original. However I don`t think we should penalize folks for modifying their cars so they can enjoy them more. Doing so just limits the number of people who will show.





So how do we keep a level playing field?

First of all, we have a seperate division for Unrestored cars. They are cars which are 10+ years old and have 75% original paint and interior.



Secondly within all the divisions (including Unrestored) we have sub classes. So for example a 1956 356 is got going to compete directly against a 1993 911.



Doing all of the above, means we get a good turn out for our shows. During 2003 we had 12 Concours Events in SoCal, AZ and NV, with over 400 cars shown. At our event we want to encorage owners of new vehciles to join is, just as much as the owner of the 356 garage queen.



JB

PCA Zone 8 Concours Chair

[MBZ 500E]

Originally posted by JB in Irvine

I am not a fan of any type of artificial adjustments to scores. There are just too many exceptions I can point to.



Original Vs Modified

At PCA Zone 8 we do not judge originality. This is a good thing. It allows people with modified cars to come out and show their cars. The more cars the better. So what if the 911 owner has added a GT3 wing on the back. So what if they have added a racing harness for track time. If the owner has prepared the car better then the stock standard 911 next to them, then they should win.



Now don`t get me wrong, I appreciate very much seeing an older vehicle totally original. However I don`t think we should penalize folks for modifying their cars so they can enjoy them more. Doing so just limits the number of people who will show.



JB

PCA Zone 8 Concours Chair

JB, am I understanding this correct that PCNA doesn`t have a modified class? I noted that a good percentage of Porsches showing at HB last year were modified but I assumed they were in a separate class.



I don`t have a problem with a restored vehicles and like you I appreciate the time and effort required to achieve the results. I just wonder if it`s fair to judge them against an original vehicle, as I mentioned MBCA doesn`t have a separate classification and it sounds like JCNA doesn`t either.



BTW I sent out my check for the concours class next weekend, looking forward to learning from you in person.

[Onehole]

Originally posted by MBZ 500E

JB, am I understanding this correct that PCNA doesn`t have a modified class? I noted that a good percentage of Porsches showing at HB last year were modified but I assumed they were in a separate class..........

Well PCA does have a Special Class as follows:

"(A) SPECIAL INTEREST: - Defined as highly modified production Porsches. A Porsche with an engine swap as defined in (See # 7) would be entered in this class also. Modifications to these entries shall not affect judging, except where modifications render the entry illegal or unsafe for street use."



But this is for "highly" modified cars and few cars are entered in this class. During 2003 we had about 20 cars (out of 400+) in this class (that also inlcludes race cars and limited production). At HB there were 6 cars (out of 60+) that were in this class. (which again includes race cars and limited production).



So I would say most of the modified cars you saw at HB were in fact in the core divisions.

[Mr Concours]

I do think having a seprate modified class for customized cars a good idea,ie; say you had 2 identical cleanliness wise cars, one standard but the other one modified with brand new ,large rim wheels and a chromed engine I bet the modified car would win due to the mods.



JB I noticed from the PCNA rules that you have to show your Boxster with the engine lid removed,how is the rest of the engine judged, mirriors,flashlight?Must be a nightmare to detail as access is so restricted.

PCGB are VERY strict on modifacations, they even look down on genuine Porsche accessories if not factory fitted which seems a bit extream,incidently do you in the U.S say Porsche or can you bring yourself to say Porsche-a?

[AndyC]

Maybe we`re getting caught up in the standard/modified/restored/unrestored debate here guys.



Again, I don`t speak from hand-on concours epxerience so take my comments with a large pinch of salt if you want but would it not make more sense to split concours events thus.



Standard



For vehicles which are eactly as they left the factory, without any aftermarket modifications or improvements anywhere



Standard modified



As standard category but allowing for factory fitted or approved accessories.



Modified



Any vehicle which has been modified or improved using aftermarket &/or non approved parts or accessories



Racing



Does what it says on the tin!



Each category is judged by a mixture of judges, all of whom are experts in 1 or more categories (how do you judge "expert" - I know, not an easy one!) to determine the class winner so if you used my simplified categories as above you`d have 4 cars awarded a "best in class" trophy.



As to deciding "best in show" surely it`s about deciding which of your winners best exemplifies the marque being represented if it`s a one make concours.



As for restored vs unrestored I`d agree that a nicely restored car looks nice when compared to a car which is UNrestored but maybe I should have initially said "preserved" as opposed to "unrestored".



If we`re talking older classics and pre-war cars then preservation gets my vote over restired every time - i.e. a vehicle which has been kept in its time worn condition with a patina appropriate to a xx year old vehicle.



I don`t want to see "brand new" Bentleys, Bugattis, Hispano Suizas et all winning all the silver - but that`s just my take.



And while a ground up "as new" restoration might well cost a lot of dough, a sympathetic restoration, preserving the car`s patina can be just as costly - I speak as someone who spends a lot of time talking to people who make their living from doing just this - as a car fan anyway I love listening to what they do, how they do it and finding out the sort of money people spend on their cars.



I`m with Mr Concours` last post - the customized car scene is growing both here in the UK and elsewhere and whilst it`s not my thing I can still appreciate those who want to make their cars look different and take pride in what they`ve done (and this is an Old Skool Chelsea Cruise goer talking!)



It`s all subjective really - there will always be those who prefer a customized car against factory standard and maybe the only way to prevent arguments is to separate them entirely.

[Onehole]

Originally posted by Mr Concours

I do think having a seprate modified class for customized cars a good idea,ie; say you had 2 identical cleanliness wise cars, one standard but the other one modified with brand new ,large rim wheels and a chromed engine I bet the modified car would win due to the mods.

Not in a PCA event. Judging is very "hands on". Judges check for dirt and dust in every crack and corner using their fingers. The only area that requires any subjective decision making is whether a part is worn and needs replacing. No one chromes an engine in the Porsche world, but even if they did, there would be no advantage in a Cconours Event.

JB I noticed from the PCNA rules that you have to show your Boxster with the engine lid removed,how is the rest of the engine judged, mirriors,flashlight?Must be a nightmare to detail as access is so restricted.

Yep, its tough to detail. As I mentioned, judging is hands on. All the top cars are visually 100% perfect/clean. The standard of judging requires the competitor to understand a new meaning of cleanliness. We don`t use white gloves in judging, but its as if we do. The judges will reach into the engine bay and if they find a spec of dirt/grease any where, its a deduction. They check inside locks, inside panels, underside of hoses/wires, on pulley belts etc etc.

PCGB are VERY strict on modifacations, they even look down on genuine Porsche accessories if not factory fitted which seems a bit extream,incidently do you in the U.S say Porsche or can you bring yourself to say Porsche-a?

In GB I understand that most Porsche`s are ordered. In the US a lot are bought straight off the lot. So sometimes you don`t get all the options you want. I believe Porsche`s have more options available than any manufacturer. There are many things I have added since new and this is very common. Again I don`t think you should do anything to limit the number of people who can attend Concours Events nor reduce folks ability to enjoy their cars.



The correct pronunciation is Posrche-a, ans thats what most owners use, however the common US pronunciation is just Porsch.

[Mr Concours]

Maybe a special tropy for most original car or as AndyC suggested best preserved would be a nice touch, if any other organisers are reading this?

[Matt M, PA]

I have shown national award winning cars for over 15 years.



The AACA (Antique Auto Club of America) has a special division in which "original" cars compete. It`s no so much a competition, but the Judges go over the car and figure how much is original. Then the car is awarded an HPOF or not. (I think this stands for Historic Preservation or Original Features.)



Some Judges do give the nod to original cars, but the problem is that few cars that are original are in show condition...or even close.



I have restored several Mopars, (69 Road Runner `vert, 2 Superbirds) and the most recent car, I grew up with...a 72 Plymouth Scamp. Here`s a link with some pics.



http://forums.godragracing.com/viewtopic.php?t=8066



At least locally, the show scene has changed with the recent influx of the younger folks with the compact cars. And, most of the older iron from the 20s, 30s and 40s doesn;t even come anymore. I guess folks with cars of that vintage are too old to want to be bothered anymore.



When I restored the car in the link, I was very careful to duplicate as faithfully as possible and of the factory manners. I couldn`t bring the body shop to shoot it with one-step enamel though...I really wanted orange peel to llok more original.

[SP 325i]

Would this have to go in modified section or would it be OK in standard









Sorry couldn`t resist it



Steve

[Lowejackson]

There are a couple of workshops in the UK which will match the original (poor) welding and use original (poor) quality metals in the restoration of vintage Alfa`s.



Not sure how this fits with the Concours spirit or even if it is a good thing but apparently these guys charge a LOT of money.

[chris0626]

Originally posted by Matt M, PA

The AACA (Antique Auto Club of America) has a special division in which "original" cars compete. It`s no so much a competition, but the Judges go over the car and figure how much is original. Then the car is awarded an HPOF or not. (I think this stands for Historic Preservation or Original Features.)

Matt, is there a URL where they list their shows? I`m starting to feel jaded with JCNA "Concours" and wanting a show that values that older cars.

[Matt M, PA]

Lynn...www.aaca.org.



The AACA recognizes cars 25 years or older, and while some local shows may be AACA local chapter`s events...there are a number of meets that have the AACA judging with HPOF, Junior, Senior, etc.



You do have to be a member (it`s reasonable) and they are always pre-registered shows.



HPOF recognizes original cars....not restored cars. I have never competed in this class, so I don`t know the ins & outs.



The regular AACA classes cover all makes and models, as long as they are 25 years old or more. You would first compete for a National 1st Prize. Once this is achieved, you get a brass plaque to mount on the car...usually on the grill. After that, you would compete for the Senior tab. Then, Preservation Awards are given if the vehicle is kept up. The next rung up is the Grand National 1sts and Seniors.



My 1972 Plymouth got it`s 1st at Hershey last Fall and will compete for Senior in June. My last car went as far as Grand National 1st before I sold it.



If you want or need more info, please let me know. I can post a pic of the badge if you`re curious about it.



One more thing...some of our local shows have a AACA Senior class....it`s more of a display than a competition. I think this is a great idea, and one good reason to get these awards....it takes you out of the competition BS and you can jsut enjoy the day.