Car Show Judges......

[krwaxbz]

I agree formost do not touch the owner or partisapaiant`s automobile. What comes off in your hand is yours to buy !!! I have always used a small flashlight to inspect areas I could not get too Yes I guess the white glove treatment is ok as long as you are carefull, but I see no reason unless it is a tie breaker to even go there.

At one time while judgeing two mustangs We needed to pull the gas cap and oil dip sticks to see which one was cleaner. The real question is which car is more costly to restore and worth more on the collector market a 1966 Mustang GT Converibler or a 1966 Shelby Mustang?

Bob Geco

[chris0626]

Originally posted by krwaxbz

The real question is which car is more costly to restore and worth more on the collector market a 1966 Mustang GT Converibler or a 1966 Shelby Mustang?

Bob Geco

Maybe I`m missing something here, but my gut reaction is :scared WHAT?? You`re going to award scores based on market value and/or on which costs more to restore -- not which car has been more carefully prepped for the show??? No wonder I`m contemplating retirement from the Concours circuit.

[JJUACC]

Normally this is not the case at the car shows I attend. They usually mention if doors need to be opened, hood and trunk area opened, windows up/down, etc. There`s no need to touch to observe cleanliness. If they are looking for originally there might have to be minor exceptions to see part numbers, etc.



I would be furious also if this was not CLEARLY STATED AND UNDERSTOOD PRIOR TO YOUR ENTRY.



I would say something to the organizers either in person or via writing.

[Onehole]

Originally posted by JJU

..... There`s no need to touch to observe cleanliness. ....

Well how about dirt in the cracks of the seat?



How about dirt right under the seat?



How about great gobs of dirty grease inside a door lock?



How about the film of dirt on the door sill? (You think its clean, it looks clean, you did in fact clean it, but trust me, drive a couple of miles, its now dirty)



What about dirt deep inside a door jam?



What about brake dust in the lug nut on the alloys? (looks clean....its aint guaranteed)



Whats about the inside of the alloys?



What about dirt behind the number plate? (Can`t see it, but again I gaurantee its there)



What about dirt under the door handle?



What dust/dirt under the dash?



What about dirt behind the pedals?



What about dirt on the seat belts? Have to pull these out fully to see?



What about dirt behind the rollbars on a Boxster?



What about dirt trapped in a door rubber seal?



What about dirt in the windscreen vents?



And what about the 10 billion places in the engine you can`t see?? The under side of every hose, wiring loom etc etc.





At Porsche Concours events we check in all these areas (yes with hands :shocked ) and in more places. Frankly its pretty easy to prep a car that looks clean. :nixweiss

[krwaxbz]

JB:

You have ligimate question. there is a difference between fresh accumilation of dirt on driven automobiles to a Concours and that has to be excused. the real question is presenation and preperation if the chassie & inside of the wheels are dirty I deduct on the score sheet with a note per my deductions for the head judge.



If someone is too lazy to clean there car the day before and have me look at it I will certainly not Honor it as I would an Automobile that someone has spend countless hours preping for the show. That is why you do a walk around your class to idenify the real potenial contenders , the rest are just fill.



KRWAXBZ

[togwt]

Quote:

If someone is too lazy to clean there car the day before and have me look at it I will certainly not Honour it as I would an Automobile that someone has spend countless hours prepping for the show. That is why you do a walk around your class to identify the real potential contenders, the rest are just filling.



~One man’s opinion~



I’m in total agreement with ‘krwaxbz’, that’s the way I do ‘preliminary judging’ anyway.





~Hope this is of some help~





Experience unshared; is knowledge wasted…/



~ justadumbarchitect ~so I question everything ~

[chris0626]

JB and TOGWT, I can sorta understand what you mean. On the other hand, when you have a car that`s been carefully prepped in terms of the real mechanicals, and you lose to a car that`s shiny-clean with inauthentic "restoration" and you lose to that car, then I gotta ask .... If the Concours judges are really looking just at cleanliness (and that was the case with my most recent show), then let`s quit showing at concours and just take the cars to the Car Washers International Convention. When my authentic, but driven alternator loses to a shiny new but inauthentic alternator, then something is seriously wrong!



But I also acknowledge this may be a function of the Jaguar concours system, which relies on amateur, volunteer judges ... some of whom don`t really know the marque in-depth and thus resort to cleanliness as their only criterion.



Thanks for letting me vent.

[MBZ 500E]

JB I hear ya!!! I love driving my car but it is so frustrating when I get back to the garage and everything is dirty again. It`s even more frustrating driving to a show, I feel like I`m starting over with the cleanup process. The brake dust on the lug nut is a big pet peeve, how the hell does brake dust collect in this area.....ugh.



Lynn I know what you mean as well with originality. When you read through MBCA rules (and most other manufacturer concours rules) you note that they will check for authenticity, cleanliness and if all items work. If a judge misses the optima battery sitting in the competitors trunk do you point it out or sulk? Not that this has happened to me yet, but I do wonder how to handle it.

[chris0626]

Originally posted by MBZ 500E

Lynn I know what you mean as well with originality. When you read through MBCA rules (and most other manufacturer concours rules) you note that they will check for authenticity, cleanliness and if all items work. If a judge misses the optima battery sitting in the competitors trunk do you point it out or sulk? Not that this has happened to me yet, but I do wonder how to handle it.

Though some difficult/thorny questions have been raised in this thread, this one is easy in Jag Club rules. If you point out a defect/originality flaw in a competitor`s Jag, you are disqualified ... no ifs, ands, or buts. Quick and easy. No recourse. You just stand there and keep your mouth shut. I do see the sense of this rule but ... when you`ve spent a long time learning the ins and outs of a marque, and you lose points to a competitor who thinks a shiny Bosch alternator is "nifty" ... and you draw judges who don`t know the difference ... well ... I`m gonna shut up now.

[Onehole]

Well I think there are 2 sides to this argument Lynn.



Losing to a car that is clearly dirty solely because you have one non-original part doesn`t sound like fun to me



That being said, Porsche events don`t judge authentisity, so its not an issue. When its all said and done, Porsche`s are meant to be driven And that`s why you see things like racing harnesses, modified exhausts etc.



Requiring authentisity would take a lot of fun out of the cars and in practice mean not many people would attend concours events.

[Richt]

We are fairly lucky we have classes for both modified and standard vehicles in our peugeot club. Keeping a car authentic is as big a battle as keeping it clean. It would be easy for me to paint parts that never came painted, replace cast parts with nice chromed or polished ones. I constantly see cars in the concours that are over restored, painted floor pans that they didnt have from the factory etc.

[Sci-Fi]

Originally posted by Lynn

Though some difficult/thorny questions have been raised in this thread, this one is easy in Jag Club rules. If you point out a defect/originality flaw in a competitor`s Jag, you are disqualified ... no ifs, ands, or buts. Quick and easy. No recourse. You just stand there and keep your mouth shut. I do see the sense of this rule but ... when you`ve spent a long time learning the ins and outs of a marque, and you lose points to a competitor who thinks a shiny Bosch alternator is "nifty" ... and you draw judges who don`t know the difference ... well ... I`m gonna shut up now.

Rule #17. MASOCHISM CAN BE FUN

You`re entering an event where you are paying someone to tell you how lousy your car is. THAT, my friends, is not normal behavior. Revel in your masochism and you`ll be OK.



lol...j/k



Here`s the rest of the rules:



Jaguar Concours Rules They Don`t Put in the Manual

[Onehole]

Originally posted by Sci-Fi

Rule #17. MASOCHISM CAN BE FUN

You`re entering an event where you are paying someone to tell you how lousy your car is. THAT, my friends, is not normal behavior. Revel in your masochism and you`ll be OK.

I like it!



I`m actually helping put together a Concours 101 program for my region of the Porsche Club. I`d love to use that quote....who exactly do I attribute it to?



Funny that you mention paying a professional detailer to clean the engine. We have seen folks do that on their Porsches and it almost always is a disaster! They open the engine compartment for judging and the judge immediately leans in and places their hands on the underside of pipes, hoses, wires etc only to find great gobs of dirt and grease! This event is almost always accompanied by "but I paid$$$$ to get it detailed".



As I like to say:



There maybe someone who can make love to my wife better than I can, but there are some things I rather do myself

[Richt]

Kind of defeats the point paying someone else to do it too!

[chris0626]

Originally posted by Sci-Fi

Rule #17. MASOCHISM CAN BE FUN

You`re entering an event where you are paying someone to tell you how lousy your car is. THAT, my friends, is not normal behavior. Revel in your masochism and you`ll be OK.



lol...j/k



Here`s the rest of the rules:



Jaguar Concours Rules They Don`t Put in the Manual

Sci-Fi, every Jag owner should print and frame those tips! :bounce Having done two years of Concours and been a National Champ and a national chump, I can attest to the validity of every one of them. I`ve used lots of the resource materials from the JDRCNA before. Now, having read these too are written by an XJ6C owner ... I`m wondering: Who the heck are you??



JB: I agree with your comment:

Well I think there are 2 sides to this argument Lynn.

Losing to a car that is clearly dirty solely because you have one non-original part doesn`t sound like fun to me

That being said, Porsche events don`t judge authentisity, so its not an issue.

But in my case, I`m talking about two Autopianly-detailed/cleaned cars, one of which is actually driven regularly, and one of which is seriously over-restored -- underhood parts polished to a gleaming silver which were originally cad-plated etc, etc. -- exactly the sort of issues that RichPug306xsi pointed out. Supposedly, Jag Concours DO judge "as it came off the line" authenticity, but I`m learning that many judges go more for "glitz" than for the authenticity that is theoretically paramount in Jag judging.



But Sci-Fi is right. Any idiot with the money, time, and ambition to enter two Concours can win a JCNA regional award. I`m one of them this year, thanks (I believe) to being bashed by club politics which favored a "local hero."



So ... I think I`m through whining now. :sosad