Concourse, What Modifications Are Acceptable?

**MBZ 500E** · 05-09-2003, 10:45 PM

So I`m getting closer to finally showing my car in a concourse and I`ve wondered how the following changes to my car will affect my score. I was hoping those that have shown could help me out.

1. Modified Grille Assembly.....This is custom and was never sold with any model year.

2. 17" Wheels....These wheels were sold on a 1994 Limited Edition version of my car.

3. All Glass Euro Headlights (originally plastic/glass).....These lights were used on all of the European models.

4. Clear Sidemarkers (originally orange).....These were also used on all Euro cars.

5. Tinted Windows? I haven`t done this as of yet but I`m wondering if it would be a mistake if I did..:nixweiss

6. Smoked/Red Tailights (orignally white/amber/red)....These were sold with 1994 versions of my car.

I know these are pretty specific questions but I thought a few of you might know how to answer them. I can easily reverse Items 1, 4 and 6. The other modifications will be more time consuming or costly (like the original wheels). None of the mods required any drilling or any mod to the chassis so no big deal just alot of time and $$$.

Hope someone with experience can chime in.

**chris0626** · 05-10-2003, 10:21 AM

I know nothing about the MB concours rules. For Jaguar concours, yes, such modifications would result in point deductions IF the judges caught the mods; everything has to be as the vehicle came off the factory line. (We can`t even have window stickers/decals, except legally required ones such as inspection sticker.) Jaguar has its concours rules, point deductions, etc. outlined in the JCNA judges manual, which is available online. Have you tried locating a similar document for the Benz club?

**Onehole** · 05-10-2003, 05:27 PM

It depends on the Concours event. As Lynn salid, its would be a problem at Jaguar events.

At Porsche concours (at least in CA, NV, AZ) it would not be a problem. At these events they only judge prepartion and cleanliness. I think this is very wise since many Porsche`s are modified.

So the simple solution for you is to just ask the organizes of the event.

If you don`t know whether they are judging originality, then you also probably don`t know exactly what the judges are going to check for cleanliness either, so its a good idea to ask.

When I first started out I found the organizes very open and helpful.

**square** · 05-10-2003, 08:48 PM

I haved judged Mercedes concours, and have been through training sessions held by our club. I will give you my take on this.

The intent of concours is to award the highest points to cars that are exactly as the factory produced the car. Points are added for age and miles so that a car from the showroom floor and older cars can be judged together.

In street class, which is what I assume you will enter, a perfect car is 400 points, plus points for age and milage.

The other class is show class, which adds 100 (oops, 70 points)points for undercarriage. Not many cars enter show class.

Specific groupings of items are assigned points. For each item, 1/2 of the points are for authenticity, the other half for condition and cleanliness. So, doing a bit of reverse math, 200 for authenticity, 100 for condition, and 100 for cleanliness.

So for your items which are in the catagories:

1. grill, hood star, badge is 8

2. wheels, covers, tires are 6

3. headlamps, side markers, trim are 8

4. rear lights, sidemarkers, trim are 8

5. this one is in three parts:winshield...8, side windows... 12, rear window....8

6. rear lights, sidemarkers, trim are 8 (same as #4)

So absolute worst case, you could loose 1/2 of the above points, or 58/2= 29 points.

That is a bunch of points, so you need to decide how important this is to you. Also, judging has two key attributes. One, the judge has to see it before they deduct, and Two, they have leeway in how much they will deduct (within the guidelines). It is entirely possible you will lose zero points based on the experience level of the judges. Hmmm, I don`t think anyone will miss the window tinting though.

Your question about parts that were available on other years of your car. The answer depends on how serious your concours is. Stricly speaking, they are not origional items for your car, and points should be deducted. Some judges will let this go, others will not. This is a grey area at low key contests. Anything can happen, other competitors may point it out to the chief judge, ...

I would not tint the windows, they add up to many points.

The most useful tip I can give you is to pay close attention to the engine compartment. Make sure it is spotless. Many points are lost there!

I hope this makes sense. Please let me know of anything else I can clarify.

Lou

**MBZ 500E** · 05-10-2003, 10:40 PM

Lynn,

I`ve taken your advice and emailed a couple of people to determine which club to join. I`m also trying to get copies of judging sheets from others that have shown.

JB,

I wish the MB concourse was as lenient as the Porsche but after reading Lou`s post I seriously doubt it.

Lou,

I really appreciate all the information you`ve provided. You`ve definitely changed my mind about a few modifications.

I`ve definitely decided not to tint the windows knowing it will deduct so many points. I also decided that I will leave the new wheels, leave the new Euro lights and the clear sidemarker. The Euro lights will stay for safety reasons and the clear markers just look so much better I can handle the deduction. Next year I`ll have the original wheels refinished and buy the original tires to go along with them.

Everything else will go back to stock including tailights and the grille.

I just spent 7 straight hours cleaning my wheel wells today thinking this is an area that would be judged. My mechanic said that he would let me use his lift on the weekend to get the undercarriage cleaned. So now I have another question. What do they look for when judging the undercarriage. If some light corrosion exists on a few nuts and bolts will this take points away or are they judging cleanliness. I`m going to repaint the exhaust, everything else looks pretty good but not immaculate. Any info would help.

Thanks again everyone and any other information is really apreciated.

**square** · 05-11-2003, 09:29 AM

MBZ 500E

Go here for official details: http://www.mbca.org/rulebook.htm

This document has many items, but see the Concours section, and the scoresheet in the appendix.

The under carriage of your car will only be judged if you enter show class. I am not sure what you will enter but in my area, most cars are in street class. In street class, the under carriage is not judged. Are you going to enter show class?

Wheel wells are only judged in show class, and they are 4 points total. Although I suspect you also cleaned front and rear suspension parts as well as brake lines..., but again, these are only judged in show class.

So 1/2 of the points for any item are allocated to condition and cleanliness. And those are split equally, so 1/4 of the points are for condition, 1/4 are for cleanliness.

Corrosion is considered condition, so points would be deducted for corrosion. So they will judge both condition and cleanliness.

On item to point out about exhaust systems. Mercedes never used stainless steel exhast, yet it is common to use stainless in replacement systems. You will lose points for stainless, and any non-standard exhast tips. This happens alot!

Also, the European headlights are OK in street class, but not show class. See the details in the document referenced above.

What else?

Lou

**MBZ 500E** · 05-11-2003, 01:20 PM

Lou, your a wealth of information and I really apreciate you taking the time to share it with me!

That web site you posted was exactly what I was looking for, I`ll reference this from now on.:up

Your right about the wheel wells, I did clean the suspensions arms shock and brake lines. The undercarriage was recently steam cleaned but it`s definitely not ready for show yet. The biggest problem with some of the corroded items is Mercedes doesn`t sell the same quality nuts/bolts anymore. My car came with Zinc plated parts and the new parts have a blueish Zinc spray coating (Cheaper) so I`m kind of stuck with what I have.

Believe it or not my car was one of the few that came with a stainless exhaust from the factory, yes it`s a low grade of stainless but it is stainless (it`s original). It has some mild corrosion which I plan to sand and paint in a satin greyish/silver. The muffler was black and the paint has dulled or chipped off so this I`m painting black.

I reviewed the rule sheet and it looks like I`ll be in Group 5 (Modern).

I`m still debating if I should enter show class even though my car is driven occasionally. The major problem with entering show class is all the cosmoline that is under the car. This could take forever to get rid of and I assume points will be deducted if it`s there......oh well I guess I`ll figure it out.

**Pats300zx** · 05-11-2003, 03:06 PM

Things are alittle different for concours judging for the 300ZX. We don`t loose points for modifications because the classes are broken down based on your modifications.

Our classes are:

Daily Driver

Street Modfied

Nissan Modified

Ultra Modfied

Gold Medallion

The classes are dependent on the number of visible modifications to the car (ie engine, suspension, etc.)

**square** · 05-11-2003, 08:00 PM

MBZ 500E

I know what you mean on some of the newer replacement parts and hardware. Strictly from a judging perspective, new OEM parts would not hurt your authenticity score.

Thanks for the info on your stainless exhaust, I was not aware.

Just for an example, our clubs recent concours had about 30 cars. The chief judge broke up the cars into old SLs, new SLs, and sedans. Just three classes, all street. You might check with your event organizer and see what they will do.

Keep us up to date on what you do, and how the concours event goes! I would like to know.

Lou

**chris0626** · 05-12-2003, 11:00 AM

Believe it or not my car was one of the few that came with a stainless exhaust from the factory, yes it`s a low grade of stainless but it is stainless (it`s original).

MBZ, check with the Benz experts about this. In Jag concours, if a judge deems something to be non-authentic, it`s up to the owner to prove it`s authentic. Often this means having the original promo literature for that year and model, though maybe the window sticker would also work. I`m sure Lou can address that.

**MBZ 500E** · 05-12-2003, 11:22 AM

Lynn,

Thats a good point. I checked the window sticker and unfortunately it is not listed as an item. I`ll make sure to contact the local dealer and get the exact materials of construction for the OEM exhaust as well as other items which can become an issue (Phone/Cd Changer).

A friend of mine is helping me to create a timeline for the car and the reasons it came to be. We plan to include the original brochure, some Magazine reprints and anything else worth putting on there. We`re doing this mainly for the benefit of the spectators, not sure if the judges will have time to review it.

**chris0626** · 05-12-2003, 11:37 AM

MBZ, I may not have been clear about the judges reviewing your documentation. And I can`t speak like Lou can about MB concours. But in JCNA, it happens like this: If a judge wants to deduct points for non-authenticity, he has to point out the problem to the owner. The owner then has the right to produce documentation showing the item is original. If the owner succeeds, the judge goes away wiser.

If the owner fails, the owner then has to initial the score sheet acknowledging the deduction. BTW, even after initialling the scoresheet, the owner still has a right to protest to the JCNA national protest committee.

Apparently, it can all get even more complex than I`m saying. For example, there are some dealer-installed options (e.g., leather steering wheels) that can still get deductions because they were not factory-installed. How anal can we all get about this? Nobody has yet discovered the bottom of that bit.

**square** · 05-12-2003, 07:36 PM

Lynn, MBZ

MB and JAG are essentially the same, it is a burden of proof on the owner for authenticity. And you can protest. And it can go on to no end over the smallest item.

At the end of the day, the chief judge will settle any issues, and winners will be selected.

Pull together as much documentation as you can. The spectators will like it. The judges will not look at it unless they have a question about authenticity. And you may not need documentation this time, but may sometime in the future.

Lou