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  1. #16

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    Re: Is Extended-Mileage Oils a New Requirement for Vehicle Gas Engines Built after 2015?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stokdgs View Post
    The only thing that Start/Stop Feature does really well is wear out your starter motor and battery quicker.. And then, your Alternator has to run more often at full charge to keep that Battery charged up.. Of course, if you don`t keep the vehicle long, this will never be an issue for you..

    I would like to see studies in years that show how much $$ was actually "saved" with this Feature on, and then compare that number to the cost of replacing starter motors and batteries more often..
    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
    Typical American corporate answer to a Federal Mandate to meet EPA gas mileage requirement. Yes, there is no doubt that gas mileage is improved, BUT as you point out Stokdgs, the "hidden cost" is in the wear-and-tear on the engine starter and electrical system to the owner down the road. So I spend $800.00 to get that system replaced every 5-years, but save $350 in fuel over that time (60,000 miles of driving based on an industry consumer travel average of 12,000 per year) to gain 0.35 mile per gallon over the same vehicle without that feature.
    One of the consequences of there being less engineers and less manufacturing, is less people are exposed to engineering and manufacturing. When you decide to utilize a stop-start system, you change the specification for the vehicle, which results in design and engineering changes to meet the new specification. Here`s a Wiki article on the topic, if you scroll down to "enhanced components", you can see some of the things that are typically done:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Start-stop_system

    IMO you guys aren`t giving enough credit to the engineers and designers that make these systems work, by just presuming that nothing is changed except some suit told someone to change the software so that the starter and alternator get worn out.
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  2. #17
    dansautodetailing.com Stokdgs's Avatar
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    Re: Is Extended-Mileage Oils a New Requirement for Vehicle Gas Engines Built after 2015?

    Setec Astronomy --
    I know of a really good mechanic who writes for the Roundel Magazine, who has said many times in his hands on experiences with Bimmers Start/Stop option, that all he does is replace the parts when they wear out.. Perhaps some manufacturers will actually upgrade the parts, but if that is going to cost so much $$, well then what should they do?

    This is the same Company that lengthened the miles between oil changes, because they didn`t want to keep paying for all those oil changes.. Never mind the internals are mucking around in oil that should have been changed sooner..

    I will hope that all Manufacturers will actually make this better for everyone, but am not going to be holding my breath..
    Dan F

  3. #18

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    Re: Is Extended-Mileage Oils a New Requirement for Vehicle Gas Engines Built after 2015?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stokdgs View Post
    Setec Astronomy --
    I know of a really good mechanic who writes for the Roundel Magazine, who has said many times in his hands on experiences with Bimmers Start/Stop option, that all he does is replace the parts when they wear out.. Perhaps some manufacturers will actually upgrade the parts, but if that is going to cost so much $$, well then what should they do?
    Well, to channel Henny Youngman...that mechanic isn`t going to be replacing parts that aren`t worn out. There are always going to be some failures. When I used to do sales, sometimes a potential customer would ask me what I thought of a competitor`s product, and I would tell them, I hear these kind of bad things...but to be honest with them, I would say, happy customers aren`t going to be coming to me, so the only competitor customers I talk to are the unhappy ones. Just like the mechanic is only going to fix the broken cars, so from his perspective, all the cars he sees are broken, and "all he does is replace the parts when they wear out".

    We`re all going to look at the glass, and some of us will see the glass as half full, and see the promise of new technologies. And some of us will see the glass as half empty, and ask why did they have to change something that worked? I`m going to look at it and say we CAN make cars with stop-start engines without wearing out the starter and alternator, and you`re going to look at it as an unfortunate idea.

    My pet peeve is those darn anti-siphon valves on the outside hose faucets. They always leak! Why do I have to have one on my faucet because some numb-nuts left his pesticide spray gun hooked up and the faucet open when he lost pressure in his house and siphoned his bug spray back into his potable water supply and poisoned himself? That`s like a one-in-a-million shot, and now we all have to pay for it, so to speak.

    Anyway, I thought we were making America great again, turning it back into a can-do country, instead of a can`t-do country. So I`d like to think we can do stop-start engines that work.
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  4. #19
    dansautodetailing.com Stokdgs's Avatar
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    Re: Is Extended-Mileage Oils a New Requirement for Vehicle Gas Engines Built after 2015?

    Setec Astronomy,
    Thanks for your reply tonight !
    I am all for new technologies; spent my entire working life finding the best Bandwidth technologies for the companies I worked for..

    I know what you mean about anti-siphon valves ! I have one soldered on my front yard faucet, so I have to get out the tools to change that sometime when it goes out..
    Have changed all 6 diaphragms of the Sprinkler System anti siphon valves over the past couple of years..

    One thing I wish they had done more research on that affects everyone out here where I live, is Pex fresh water plumbing.. Great idea, I guess.. Way cheaper, way faster to install than soldered copper..
    They just didn`t do their homework on the real characteristics of plastic..

    Used clamps that were not designed to work with plastic pipe that wants to ALWAYS expand back to its original shape.. So it fights the clamps and eventually cuts itself there and starts leaking... and leaking...and leaking until you catch it..

    My next door neighbor went on a 3 week vacation and came back to his entire master bathroom ceiling soaked through and collapsed onto the floor of his bathroom.. And all that water still leaking onto the floor, out the bathroom, into the bedroom,.. Yeah, talk about a ticking time bomb..
    I think if I had known there was Pex out here, I would have not bought a house here..

    Loved the article, thank you.
    Dan F

  5. #20

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    Re: Is Extended-Mileage Oils a New Requirement for Vehicle Gas Engines Built after 2015?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stokdgs View Post
    One thing I wish they had done more research on that affects everyone out here where I live, is Pex fresh water plumbing.. Great idea, I guess.. Way cheaper, way faster to install than soldered copper..

    Used clamps that were not designed to work with plastic pipe that wants to ALWAYS expand back to its original shape.. So it fights the clamps and eventually cuts itself there and starts leaking... and leaking...and leaking until you catch it..
    You`re right of course, PEX isn`t better, it`s just cheaper. Just like those flex gas pipes they attach stoves with, sure that`s way faster than black pipe, until the kids lose a ball back there and pull out the stove to get it...and overstretch the flex pipe...

    Maybe stop-start is a dumb idea done for a high ideal. The world is full of tradeoffs, sometimes we humans do things for the wrong reasons, like I`m sure it was a high ideal that caused Boeing to create for the 737 Max software that would help inexperienced pilots to fly more safely. Then some people in charge decided that to more effectively compete with Airbus they would try to minimize how big the changes were, and basically hide facts about the system from the FAA, the airlines, and the pilots.

    I guess I`m just an optimist about technology. Almost 50 years ago my father woke me up in the middle of the night and carried me down to the TV (I had a broken foot), to watch the first man walk on the moon. It was a time when it seemed like we as a nation, could do anything.

    I lived through the first horrible CAFE and Clean Air Act confluence, the horrible cars made in the late 70`s through I guess the late 80`s, and then I remember the wonderful cars we had in the 90`s and 00`s and up to today, really...Dodge Hellcats with over 700 HP; who, 40 years before, would have thought that was possible?

    I`m confident that when we come out on the other side of this current CAFE period, we`re going to have fantastic cars that are fast, fun, and get great mileage. But maybe in the middle here we`re going to have some dumb stuff that doesn`t work so well and is annoying. Hopefully it doesn`t work out like PEX and garden faucets.

  6. #21

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    Re: Is Extended-Mileage Oils a New Requirement for Vehicle Gas Engines Built after 2015?

    On start/stop: We`ve only experienced that in rentals and service loaners, but neither my wife nor I will ever be sitting in traffic with a vehicle that`s not running. Not one of `em has consistently restarted as fast as we can react to an emergent situation and we`re not gonna sit there and get hit waiting for a car to restart itself. Gas is cheap, avoiding injury is priceless.

  7. #22
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    Re: Is Extended-Mileage Oils a New Requirement for Vehicle Gas Engines Built after 2015?

    Quote Originally Posted by Accumulator View Post
    On start/stop: We`ve only experienced that in rentals and service loaners, but neither my wife nor I will ever be sitting in traffic with a vehicle that`s not running. Not one of `em has consistently restarted as fast as we can react to an emergent situation and we`re not gonna sit there and get hit waiting for a car to restart itself. Gas is cheap, avoiding injury is priceless.
    Guess it depends on the implementation but MB stop start is super fast. As soon as you start letting up on the brake, the engine is already running before you even have a chance to step on the go pedal.

  8. #23

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    Re: Is Extended-Mileage Oils a New Requirement for Vehicle Gas Engines Built after 2015?

    DAn- Ah, wow, that *is* great! The Audi and Nissan systems I have experience with aren`t like that, at least not consistently. They`re fast, but not fast enough to be transparent to me.

  9. #24
    Hooked For Life Bill D's Avatar
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    Re: Is Extended-Mileage Oils a New Requirement for Vehicle Gas Engines Built after 2015?

    Quote Originally Posted by rlmccarty2000 View Post
    I’m an oil snob. I don’t trust the dealer or local grease monkey to put the correct oil in my vehicles, I buy my oil (and filter) and take it to whoever is going to install it. I also try to watch and make sure they actually use my oil that I brought and not the bulk stuff. My OCD is not limited to paint.
    I would do the same but fortunately I can change my own oil.
    Treat it like it`s the only one in the world.

  10. #25

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    Re: Is Extended-Mileage Oils a New Requirement for Vehicle Gas Engines Built after 2015?

    I just had an oil change and I had gone 13k on Mobil 1 0-40. I was away for the winter and I was getting warnings on my dash that I need to change my oil. When I got home a couple of weeks ago I gone 3K over. My mechanic asked me if I had changed the oil since my last visit because it looked like fresh oil. He and I was both impressed at the condition of the oil.

  11. #26

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    Re: Is Extended-Mileage Oils a New Requirement for Vehicle Gas Engines Built after 2015?

    Heh heh, if I didn`t trust the Tech 100% I just wouldn`t let him around my vehicle period. I`ve had too many, uhm...issues..where an apology after the fact didn`t cut it. Yes indeed, I`ll be up a [certain] creek if they retire!

  12. #27

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    Re: Is Extended-Mileage Oils a New Requirement for Vehicle Gas Engines Built after 2015?

    Quote Originally Posted by Setec Astronomy View Post
    One of the consequences of there being less engineers and less manufacturing, is less people are exposed to engineering and manufacturing. When you decide to utilize a stop-start system, you change the specification for the vehicle, which results in design and engineering changes to meet the new specification.
    IMO you guys aren`t giving enough credit to the engineers and designers that make these systems work, by just presuming that nothing is changed except some suit told someone to change the software so that the starter and alternator get worn out.
    I did work in mechanical engineering, and yes, changes in specifications in machinery, or more correctly, requirements to meet government-mandated environmental and safety regulations drastically changed the functionality of a machine, requiring added costs to meet those changes. While making a machine to meet a new OSHA regulation may provide a worker with more "safety", trying to service or maintain such machinery may add hours to that needed service/maintenance time and hence cost. What is REALLY unfortunate is that non-regulated safety designs are often the result of the sue-happy society (legal system litigation) we have in America and the need to "cover your behind" to protect your machine design company.(I need to have a redundant safety switch on that guard panel? Why is the operator even in there in the first place!)

    The other aspect of machine design was to make them "more efficient" that required less human interface or attention, AKA , automation. While this is done, the level of sophistication and complexity increases the cost while at the same time requiring a better educated and trained machine operator. You can no longer hire "someone off the street" to run some of these machines. They need tech school training on Programmable Logic Controls and Machine Human Interface Touch Screens, along with a high level mechanical aptitude. Everyone thinks that today`s machine operators are button pushers. They are not.

    There are always trade-offs in design: less human intervention or a new level of safety requires increases sophistication and higher machine costs.
    The other rule of design: Just when you think you`ve made some thing idiot-proof, they make better idiots!!

    The analogy is much the same with today`s modern cars: there is not much the average vehicle owner can do in terms of maintenance on their own vehicle, EXCEPT maybe changing their oil. Without sophisticated electronic diagnostic equipment and training, it is difficult to service a modern vehicle properly because of the electronics and computers and proprietary software programs involved.
    GB detailer
    Likes Stokdgs, RMD liked this post

  13. #28
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    Re: Is Extended-Mileage Oils a New Requirement for Vehicle Gas Engines Built after 2015?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post

    The analogy is much the same with today`s modern cars: there is not much the average vehicle owner can do in terms of maintenance on their own vehicle, EXCEPT maybe changing their oil. Without sophisticated electronic diagnostic equipment and training, it is difficult to service a modern vehicle properly because of the electronics and computers and proprietary software programs involved.
    I guess it depends on what you are used too. I look at an old engine with a carb and non electronic ignition and think wow, that looks complex. Today’s computerized systems do a nice job of pointing you in the right direction. Then you just use the charts to test the individual sensors or assemblies. You can even log data and pinpoint very intermittent issues.

    I once had a vacuum leak that caused a weird stutter on an 90s mustang that drove me nuts for a year or so. Wish I had OBD2 back then.

    The one thing that is bad on newer cars is when wiring starts to fail. That causes all sorts of issues.

  14. #29
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    Re: Is Extended-Mileage Oils a New Requirement for Vehicle Gas Engines Built after 2015?

    Quote Originally Posted by Accumulator View Post
    DAn- Ah, wow, that *is* great! The Audi and Nissan systems I have experience with aren`t like that, at least not consistently. They`re fast, but not fast enough to be transparent to me.
    Yeah, I thought I was going to be buying something to bypass it but I’ve grown to like it. Also love the brake pedal hold function too. So helpful in traffic. Just come to a stop and push down just a bit harder and the car holds the brake. Just press the go pedal when the light turns green.

  15. #30

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    Re: Is Extended-Mileage Oils a New Requirement for Vehicle Gas Engines Built after 2015?

    I`m not going to argue that some of this stuff is a result of our litigious society, or that the best way to idiot-proof things is not to have idiots, but I`m going to argue with this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
    You can no longer hire "someone off the street" to run some of these machines. They need tech school training on Programmable Logic Controls and Machine Human Interface Touch Screens, along with a high level mechanical aptitude. Everyone thinks that today`s machine operators are button pushers. They are not.
    You could never hire "someone off the street", that was a fallacy promoted by the sales executives to the (machine-buying) bosses who wanted to be deluded or didn`t know any better. A sophisticated machine has always needed a sophisticated operator, otherwise all you get is garbage out.

 

 
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