Anger! arrrgh, stupid snow and ice, stupid swirls, any advise

**G03X** · 03-02-2005, 07:21 PM

Hi all, long time lurker, just had to vent and maybe get some advise. So this is what happened, just drove back from NYC To N.C. (03 black Expedition). Gone for 10 days, car covered and caked with snow and salt after the trip. One month ago, complete paint makeover. IP, FPII twice with diff pads and PC, 2 coates of #7, 2 coates of souveran. Looked great.

So after my trip I was hoping all the salt and crap would wash off without scratching. Extra careful, heavy rinse first, extra soapy mix of eagle one wash that I squeezed onto all sufaces, didn`t realy scrub, let it sit than light rinse.

Second wash with sheep skin mit, light pressure only,rinse. Fresh mit next, regular wash and rinse. After drying, swirls everywhere. AAAARRRGGGGHHH. I keep my finish pretty perfect for a black daily driver.

Had to break out the PC, and Menzerna twins again.Finished passenger side, AIO,SG, Stupid SG left hazy hologram looking smears , only 45 degrees, maybe to cold. Sill have some visible micro swirls. Hopefully souveran will help hide.

Sorry for rambling, but any sugestions for washing off salt and ice without swirls? Any stronger wash that disolves caked on salt sludge? I was trying to save my wax layers, but now it doesn`t matter.

Thanks in advance for reading and any helpful tips.

G,

**Accumulator** · 03-02-2005, 07:47 PM

Welcome to Autopia! Keeping the marring down in the winter is a real challenge.

I`ll throw out my $0.02 on this one as I`ve been knocking myself out keeping the minivan marring-free this winter. Much harder with a daily driver than it is with my pampered S8, which I also keep nice through the winter.

First, use a different LSP regimen in the winter. Souveran just isn`t durable, slick, or layerable enough for this sort of (ab)use. I get good results with multiple layers of KSG (six layers or so on the minivan), but waxes like #16 and Collinite 476S work pretty well too. UPP is also great because it`s so slick (it`s what I use on the S8). Guess I`d use the UPP on black, both for looks and slickness.

Don`t let it get/stay too dirty. At some point the winter [stuff] will really bond to the LSP and then you`re just SOL, no way to get it off without some marring.

Get a foamgun. First use it for a pre-soak- spray it on, let it dwell, rinse it off, then spray it on again. Then, I use it with my "mitt-balloon" technique, where I put the nozzle of the foamgun inside the MF/cotton mitt and let it inflate it. Soapy water seeps out of the mitt, lubricating and flushing the surface. Gently whisk the inflated mitt across the panels, trying to "dislodge and flush" the dirt away as opposed to "scrubbing" it away.

Even if you just use the foamgun to flush the surface (rather than mitt-ballooning) you can really cut down on the marring. Just ask Bill D. The "mitt-balloon" doesn`t work with sheepskin mitts anyhow, but you can use the foamgun to fill the mitt (the suds will seep out). Even just filling the mitt with wash solution by holding it cuff-opening-up in the wash bucket can work OK.

But IMO the foamgun is pretty much mandatory for this sort of thing.

If need be, only do one swipe before you rinse out the mitt. Any dirt that sticks to the mitt and gets moved across the paint has potential for marring.

Rinse/change mitts frequently. It`s better to do multiple gentle passes as opposed to one or two more aggressive ones. If any dirt sticks to the surface despite your efforts, use clay and lots of suds from the foamgun to get it off.

There`s also some stuff called "Stage I PreWash".See HERE . It`s not bad, but it`s no miracle product either. I use it when a vehicle is *very* dirty. I spray the Stage I on, let it dwell for a minute, then spray over *it* with the foamgun. Let dwell, then rinse off. Slightly more effective than just using the foamgun by itself. The 1 liter bottle of Stage I lasts a little longer than I expected.

**G03X** · 03-02-2005, 08:49 PM

Hi,

Thanks for the response, I love this place! I previously lived in Orlando, so snow wasn`t a problem, and I`m in N.C. for a few months before heading to L.A.

I usualy have AIO and a couple coats of SG topped with souveran, but after long drive from Florida I wanted to see something a little different. Menzerna treatment, #7, multiple layers of souveran. Looked real nice, deeper liquid look, almost like a thin layer of water. Although, in low angle direct sun there was maybe a yellowish or slighly collered tinge? Maybe crappy Ford black paint color, as other blacks tend to be darker, maybe souveran?

I think a foam gun would be nice. I did fill up the sheepskin mitt with alot of wash, and barely touched the surface for the first wash. The salt and snow buildup was probably to much, as it was sitting in a garage for about a week, then driven through more sludge and sat for a couple more days before returning home. Didn`t plan on driving 1000+ miles of salted roads. Oh well. First time washing after heavy snow/salt.

Back to IP and FPII, any idea how many times IP with PC can be done before to much clearcoat is removed? This will be third time in 12 months! Once right after puchase; once about a month ago (although much lighter use ); third time now. Some of the swirls look worse than before, and can still see some after doing pass. side. AARG. I want a new car! lol!

**Accumulator** · 03-02-2005, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by G03X

... any idea how many times IP with PC can be done before to much clearcoat is removed? This will be third time in 12 months! Once right after puchase; once about a month ago (although much lighter use ); third time now... I want a new car! lol!

I sure wouldn`t make a habit out of using the IP that often, but it sounds like you do need to fix things at this point. I think you really oughta try AIO+SG x several + UPP once you get things squared away.

Get the foamgun and get acquainted with it. You`ll see

On the yellowish cast with the #7/Souveran, maybe it was from the #7 :nixweiss I vaguely recall having a little of that from time to time back in the `70s when I was using #7 on my black cars.

Ya know, honestly, I really would consider getting a different minivan now that you have to deal with winter weather. I know you were kidding and that replacing it is a pretty drastic move, but man-oh-man, that`s one big, black box you got there. While I seem to be keeping ours marring free, I`ve been perfecting this technique for a very long time and I`m spending an *awful* lot of time washing it all the time (at 2.5-3.5 hours per wash). Most people would say "I have a life..." and not spend as much time on it as I do. Heh heh, I`m about ready to say that myself!

**G03X** · 03-02-2005, 10:10 PM

UPP, yup, have been wanting to try some. Might try FMJ with menzerna glaze too. Going to get some in near future. Spent about 4 hours today, looking at another 4 tomorow. I realy hope I don`t have to use IP much more, although I still have misserable orange peel so there has to be a good amount of clear? Maybe? Realy want to wet sand, but not near enough confidence.

Next time it snows I`m not driving the Expy. in it, only 2 wheel drive anyway. My Integra with Pirelli all weathers is more fun, pulling e-brakes and powering with the front wheels through turns and such. Only in safe areas of course! and pretty slow too. Thanks for the input, and happy detailing!

**Inzane** · 03-03-2005, 12:47 AM

What exactly is a "foamgun"?

**mgm2003** · 03-03-2005, 06:54 AM

In the winter, I like to rinse, then I mist spray and wipe on the surfaces, llet it stand for a few minutes, and go about with my normal 2 bucket wash. The S&W mist does a good job of lifting the salt/grime and IMO keeps the marring to a minimum.

**Accumulator** · 03-03-2005, 11:21 AM

Originally posted by Inzane

What exactly is a "foamgun"?

Product Description and Picture

As they say, "beware of cheap imitations"

G03X- Orangepeel doesn`t mean thick clear and I`d sure forget about wetsanding. Heh heh, after you wetsanded you`d need to *really* polish it, probably with something stronger than the IP.

Oh, and sorry, I somehow thought you said "Windstar", not "Expedition". Didn`t mean to call your SUV a minivan

Still a big black box when it comes to detailing though!

**zzyyzx** · 03-03-2005, 11:34 AM

I laughed at first when I saw Snow & Ice in the subject and then Orlando as the location.

This is my first winter with weather (used to live in So. Calif). I have generally accepted that during the winter I will no longer have a beautiful finish. Before it got really cold, I detailed my car up completely and but on #16 after everything. Once the snow and salt hit, I have just tried to keep it as "clean" as possible when the weather wasn`t freezing. As soon as it`s in the 40s or higher and I have a day off, I`m going to give the cars the full treatment again.

Remember frequent underbody washing. It will get the salt off.

**G03X** · 03-03-2005, 06:37 PM

So I spent about another 3 hours today. Started with FPII, luckily it got most of the minor swirls, also had to go over the AIO and SG on the passenger side. After inspection in the direct sun there was alot of hologram looking stuff. From SG or maybe some scratching when I removed it. I have almost given up trying to get everything when inspecting in direct sun, imposible.

Anyway, PC and FPII all around, inpect in sun, looking pretty good. AIO, all of the trim with GummiPflege,tires and plastick lowers with eagle one (only thing I had, but looks good), windows. Tomorow, hopefuly get a good non smeary coat of SG. Going to try and borrow a digital to post some pics, as it looks pretty good already.

Accumulator, yeah the Expy is real big, takes about twice as long to do when compared to a small sedan . No biggy about Expy/Windstar mix up. Both big, both carry alot of people and stuff. I`m not going to sand, but realy hate orangepeel.The difference between reflections from tinted black window and paint suface are huge. Hopefuly I can get a picture.

zzyyzx, yeah if it snowed in Orlando like the snow in DC and NY recently, people wouldn`t know what to do. There would be alot of scratchy cars too. Most of the local washes already do a poor job without the snow .

**Mark77** · 03-04-2005, 01:58 PM

GO3X

The problem is you probably didn`t remove all the dirt before you started touching the paint. I live in Helsinki, Finland and belive me when i say i have some experience with cars looking like you described yours. A normal carwash soap won`t do much getting rid of that kind of dirt. Teh method you describe works for "summer" dirt but in the winter the dirt is quite different.

You must presoak most of the car with some kind of solvent, let it sit there for about 3 min and then i sugest you use an electric power washer to remove it before washing with a normal carwash soap. The point is the car should look quite clean before you start toching the paint. A solvent might remove some of the wax, but rather that than scratching the paint, and good waxes(mostly liquid hardwaxes) can resist these kind of presoakers. Get an electric Power Washer that has a pressure of about 1500-1700 and spray at a 45 degree angle, not too close, aganst the paint and it won`t do any harm. Karcher has some good once in their lineup.

Good luck.