Car Wash Industry aims to stop driveway washing

[Peter Crowl]

Originally posted by wblynch



30 or 40 years ago I remember that Laundry Detergent had to be reformulated and Laundry Soap was completely banned. This had a tremendously positive effect on the environment.



But they didn`t ban washing machines !

Well Put!!

[Lenny]

Originally posted by ShineShop

I do not believe that anyone here has ever said the sole cause of pollution is washing your car at home or in the street. It is however one of the causes and that is undeniable. You can stick your head in the sand and avoid the issue by blaming it on someone else but it doesn`t change that fact. Let`s also assume that a typical vehicle has NO pollutants on it`s surface when being washed aside from common dust or soil. What about the soaps and cleaners that are being dumped directly into the storm sewers after rinsing the vehicle off? Do you have any idea of the ecological impact of detergents and soaps on fish and wildlife? Or is it that you just don`t give a damn?

I`ve called on the waste water treatment plants from Port Huron down to Toledo, and out to Sandusky, OH, both the facilities in close proximity to the Great Lakes, and the ones further inland, all the way in Michigan to Ann Arbor and Lansing, and in Ohio from the Lake Erie shoreline inland to Defiance, Bowling Green, Tiffin, and Norwalk. ShineShop, I damn well know where London, Ontario is, as I have family in Windsor and Toronto, so I`m fairly sure you have a better than average idea of where I`m referring to.



I spent the better part of ten years selling pump, seals, and chemicals to the waste water treatment plants, both municipal and industrial, so I`m more than a little familiar with the situation. Furthermore, living in the Metro Detroit area, and getting our city water from the City of Detroit, we`ve been under a federal court order, regarding waste water treatment, for the better part of three decades. That`s thirty damn years for those too lazy to do the math.



During my career I`ve had long, LONG discussions with the directors of the facilities I`ve called on. wblynch is 100% correct in saying that there is no pollution (worth speaking of) coming from driveway washing. Every damn waste water plant I spoke was extremely concerned with do-it-yourselfers: Oil changes (one quart of oil will contaminate 100,000 gallons of drinking water), leaky engine and transmission gaskets, lawn chemicals, salt and ice melt on driveways and sidewalks. Not one <edited> d*amn time did I ever hear anyone mention washing your car in your driveway as a cause of concern.



I heard them complain, bitterly, plenty of times about commercial car washes, and about recycling tank overflows into the storm sewers, especially because of the harsher pH of some commercial car wash detergents, but not one damn time in ten years did I ever hear them call out DIY car washing in your driveway as a pollution problem. If these guys aren`t calling it a problem, then just who is?



No one is sticking their heads in the sands, pal. It that no one wants to go through yet another environmentalist-politician scam that takes aim at the Little Guy, because the big guys have too many resources to fight change with. A prime example is the reason why automobile tail pipe emissions are singled out for regulation, like individual tail pipe testing, and smoke stack emissions get a more cursory once-over and ignored, especially in our mutual area of the Great Lakes. When it became evident that mandatory tail-pipe testing may come back to haunt drivers trying to renew the plates for their cars, a prominent Michigan politician came out and said that was going to happen because it was easier than going up against big company lawyers and lobbyists. When it was further pointed out that tail pipe emission testing was unnecessary with modern engine management electronics constantly doing the testing (re: your cars Check Engine Light), he acknowledged that tail pipe testing was a waste of time and money, but repeated that it was easier to please the EPA by making the little guy do something that amounted to nothing, rather than risk the threat of companies closing shop by going after the real polluters, namely the smoke stack owners.



Watch your mouth when you accuse people of sticking their heads in the sand. Most of us are not only aren`t sticking our heads in the sand, our eyes are wide open enough to see a political scam when it rears it`s ugly head. This is definitely one of those times.

[ntwrkguy1]

How about if the water from your driveway never reaches the street? I wash my car in the driveway, but because it slopes ever so slightly towards the house, the water NEVER makes it into the street. Yes, I`m using an attachment on the end of the house, so I use a minimal amount of water to wash the car.



At the end of the wash, the water remains on the driveway, but two hours later, the driveway is basically dry.



Of course, nobody wants to pollute the environment, but trust me, there are bigger offenders out there than `driveway washers`.

[TDMAN]

Thank you and well put. Shine shop, you need to get a clue. Nobody`s forcing you to wash your car in your driveway. If it personally bothers you, stop doing it. But get your facts right. You don`t have any backing or proof for what you are talking about. Plus, there is nothing more annoying than a jack*ss like you who will talk about the "problem" but never offer a solution. I think you need to get your head out of the sand.

[Bobby G]

Let`s keep it civil... this can remain a good conversation if we stay in check.

[Peter Crowl]

Hey guys...let`s keep it constructive.



I disagree with ShineShop and applaud Len_A for a very reasoned reply..save for the @$%#*# :~)... but ShineSHop reopened this discussion and good things can come of it.



Let`s throttle back the discourse and .. as TDMAN said ... get back to the issue of a solution.



Peter

[Peter Crowl]

David..since you`re monitoring this thread..what`s your take?



Peter

[Lenny]

Originally posted by Peter Crowl

Hey guys...let`s keep it constructive.



I disagree with ShineShop and applaud Len_A for a very reasoned reply..save for the @$%#*# :~)... but ShineSHop reopened this discussion and good things can come of it.



Let`s throttle back the discourse and .. as TDMAN said ... get back to the issue of a solution.



Peter

Point taken, and edited!! And thanks, too.



Sorry for the ferocity of the response, but somethings get my goat, and the the way a few in the environmental crowd have blown out of proportion something as simple as washing your own car.........



Well, let`s just say it makes me pretty mad.



Back to the discussion at hand, something to consider:



When the average person washes his or her own car, you`re using about two ounces to maybe four ounces of soap, most of which has a neutral pH. I wasn`t kidding when I said that quite a few waste water treatment plant managers gripped about commercial car washes. I have no first hand knowledge of the pH of commercial car wash detergent, but almost all of know it CAN (not always IS) strong enough to strip some of the weaker waxes off a cars finish, and at the very least, shorten the life of many waxes.



Two to maybe four ounces of pH neutral soap.



Look at fertilizing your lawn. I have NO CLUE what the average lot size is, so I`m going to talk about mine - my lot is about 80 wide by 120 feet deep. Because of my dog`s allergies, I stopped using chemical fertilizers like Scott`s, and switched to organics, like Ringer`s Lawn Restore, which I use three times a year, alternated monthly with Aggrand liquid organic fertilizer.



I didn`t do this to be a tree-hugger - those people give me a rash. Little did I know that I was helping the environment, and that was after years of calling on the waste water treatment plants (god, am I a rocket scientist...NOT!). I found out that even though the numbers on the Ringers was lower -Ringers is a 10-2-6 fertilizer, it was a slow release, so it didn`t wash down the sewer. Scott`s is a 30-3-4 - 30% nitrogen. And it dissolves in water quickly, and according to my local city government, contaminates not only the the ground water, but the Detroit River.



How? You figure that a 25 pound bag is seven and a half pounds nitrogen, about half of which will dissolve so quickly that a good rain storm or over watering will send it down the sewer. 3.75 pounds of nitrogen to make algae grow like nuts and kill off the fish. On my lot, from April to October, I`ll easily use a 25 pound bag of Scot`s if I still used that type. So just my house could, in theory, send 3.75 pounds of nitrogen down the sewer every year. Multiply that in my subdivision by 125 houses, and you got a problem.



Compare that to two to four ounces of car wash soap. Even if it were a "major" pollutant, out of two to four ounces of car wash soap, one question to ask is this:



How much of it is WATER? That`s when it`s in the package. Because gentlemen, it ain`t all soap. Even if I washed my car every week, from April to October, that`s just me washing my car. You want to know how many of us actually wash their own cars, in their own driveways in this sub? My lazy butt neighbors (yea, I tell`em that to their face when they raze me about detailing my cars)? Maybe twenty to twenty-five of us, plus three RV`s that get washed maybe twice a year.



How the hell can that compare to nearly four pounds of nitrogen hitting the sewers every year, multiplied by 125 house. 3.75 time 125 equals about 469 pounds of excess nitrogen polluting the storm sewers.



You think I`m exaggerating about the fertilizer? This is one of at least three websites in Metro Detroit telling people to use organic fertilizers Link, and you think anyone listens? And that`s on top of a monthly mailing my city and every city near me does from May to September. Lowe`s carries Milorganite, and Scott`s out sells it, according to closest store to me, by about 20 to 1, Home Depot caries Ringers, and that manager said Scott`s and the other chemical fertilizers out sell Ringers by over 40 to 1.



And some genius wants us to stop washing cars in our own driveways and use commercial car washes instead, after water treatment professionals have told me that home do-it-yourself-car-washing isn`t a huge problem.



Smells like a commercial industry scam to me.

[Anthony O.]

Shineshop, I believe si speaking mainly from a professional aspect. He reclaims his water, which is costly, and he gets ticked I am sure when he sees other detailers not abiding by the law and undercutting his prices, hence taking work from him.



I may have this wrong if so please correct me.



Given that though I understand where he is coming from.



Anthony

[Lenny]

Originally posted by Anthony Orosco

Shineshop, I believe is speaking mainly from a professional aspect. He reclaims his water, which is costly, and he gets ticked I am sure when he sees other detailers not abiding by the law and undercutting his prices, hence taking work from him.



I may have this wrong if so please correct me.



Given that though I understand where he is coming from.



Anthony

I can understand that, and most commercial drive-thru car washes (if not all) reclaim their water. Nevertheless, for an industry to attempt to go after the individual car owner, washing his or her own car, in their own driveway, is ridiculous. It isn`t cost effective for most of us, wouldn`t do the same job that, as Autopians, we would do, and I still maintain, would not benefit the environment one iota.



Besides, in a previous reply, several pages back, he said he wasn`t a carwash owner:

Originally posted by ShineShop

Why would your motivation to dispute the ban? Because it`s wrong or because it doesn`t suit your needs and wants to do your car at home? Sounds kind of self serving to me. Also, the broad issue is the depositing of detergents, surfactants, oils, rust, engine grime, wax, degreasers and a variety of metals directly into the water supply untreated. Is that not a big deal to you? I am neither a car wash owner or an environmental activist but I do want to do what`s right. Like the old saying goes: you are either part of the solution or part of the problem.

Well, I`m not a carwash owner, nor a professional detailer. I am absolutely not an environmental activist either. Do I want to do "whats right" for the environment?



Well, to be perfectly honest....no, not in this case. Sorry, but that`s the way it is. I spent too much time, in industrial sales, pending a good percentage of my time selling products in the fluid sealing side of the business, with pump and valve repair parts, working with plant engineers, safe people, union representatives, and I am plenty jaded by the whole process. I`ve seen companies skimp on basic maintenance and pay lip service to complying with environment regulations.



Right now, my company is in the process of obtaining our ISO 14000 certification. For those that aren`t familar with it, ISO14000 and it`s derivatives have to do with environmental regulation complaince. Part of the push of getting manuafcturers to comply with existing environmental laws is to get companies to do business with certified companies only, and Ford is pushing this one big time.



No new laws, just independant certification that manufacturing and industrial business are complying with laws that they were already supposed to be complying with.



So no, I don`t want to do "what`s right" for the environment, and yes, I`m being self serving. If I can do something like I`ve done already by switching to organic lawn fertilizers, to protect the environment, great. If not, it`s my house, my car, my business, and I`ll gladly ask the EPA to butt out. So sue me.



I`ve said it already, and so have others - this is an industry scam to make them money at the little guys expense.

[safetyman2010]

Let`s try and address this point by point:



"During my career I`ve had long, LONG discussions with the directors of the facilities I`ve called on. wblynch is 100% correct in saying that there is no pollution (worth speaking of) coming from driveway washing."



According to whom? You? I have heard several calls for actual scientific data to back up people`s claims so far - where are yours? Or should I just assume you are correct because you talk to some wastewater facility employees?



"Every damn waste water plant I spoke was extremely concerned with do-it-yourselfers: Oil changes (one quart of oil will contaminate 100,000 gallons of drinking water), leaky engine and transmission gaskets, lawn chemicals, salt and ice melt on driveways and sidewalks. Not one <edited> d*amn time did I ever hear anyone mention washing your car in your driveway as a cause of concern."



Interesting because there are communities all over North America that are concerned with just that. I don`t dispute that all the pollutants you listed are cause for concern - prove that watse water from car washing is not and we`ll be done here.



I heard them complain, bitterly, plenty of times about commercial car washes, and about recycling tank overflows into the storm sewers, especially because of the harsher pH of some commercial car wash detergents, but not one damn time in ten years did I ever hear them call out DIY car washing in your driveway as a pollution problem. If these guys aren`t calling it a problem, then just who is?



"These guys" are not the guys doing the research are they? They are charged with implementing environmental policy - nothing more. I challenge you to find one of your "wastewater managers" that actually has one ounce of say so with respect to research and policy concerns.



"No one is sticking their heads in the sands, pal. It that no one wants to go through yet another environmentalist-politician scam that takes aim at the Little Guy, because the big guys have too many resources to fight change with."



I think you need to stop taking your paranoia pills. No one is "out to get you" here or any other "little guy". I cannot really see that anyone has anything to gain from stopping you from washing your car and discharging the water into the storm drain. Please explain how someone is going to get rich off this "scam". It`s about cleaning up and preserving the water supply here - nothing else.



"Watch your mouth when you accuse people of sticking their heads in the sand. Most of us are not only aren`t sticking our heads in the sand, our eyes are wide open enough to see a political scam when it rears it`s ugly head. This is definitely one of those times."



IF you honestly believe that washing the pollutants off your car at home or in the street and allowing the pollutants and soaps/cleaners/detergents run off into the water supply is not polluting than I don`t know what to say. Maybe you aren`t sticking your head in the sand - perhaps somewhere else? All sarcasm aside, I don`t want to take it to that level. Your individual carwash may be insignificant as a single source of pollution - that`s true. The MILLIONS of carwashes done every day combined are not - that`s a fact. If you simply DO NOT COMPREHEND THIS then there is simply no point in debating this with you any further.

[safetyman2010]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TDMAN

Thank you and well put. Shine shop, you need to get a clue. Nobody`s forcing you to wash your car in your driveway. If it personally bothers you, stop doing it. But get your facts right. You don`t have any backing or proof for what you are talking about. Plus, there is nothing more annoying than a jack*ss like you who will talk about the "problem" but never offer a solution. I think you need to get your head out of the sand. [/QUOTE



Respectfully maybe you should grab a clue? I do not wash my car in my driveway and that is the whole point. I wash my vehicle in a controlled environment where the waste water is collected and disposed of properly. As a matter of record I have proof and have posted said proof. You simply choose not to belive it because it conflicts with your wishes to avoid responsibility for your small part of the polluting problem. I can spend countless hours collecting more data to reinforce my position but I already know that would be wasted upon those like yourself who CHOOSE not to believe what they see not because it is wrong but because they don`t like it.

As for me being a *******, you have every right to offer up your opinion and thanks so much for being so articulate in so doing. However, you offered no constructive commentary with respect to the problem or a possible solution. You simply continue to deny the problem and deflect blame to "the real offenders". It`s not my job to come up with a solution for you or anyone else. I have my solution and I comply with the law and feel content that I am doing my part to keep the water supply clean both as a business and a citizen.

[safetyman2010]

Originally posted by Anthony Orosco

Shineshop, I believe si speaking mainly from a professional aspect. He reclaims his water, which is costly, and he gets ticked I am sure when he sees other detailers not abiding by the law and undercutting his prices, hence taking work from him.



I may have this wrong if so please correct me.



Given that though I understand where he is coming from.



Anthony

I do not reclaim my water Anthony. I am fortunate in that my building has the appropriate water disposal setup (sand trap, oil sererator) and the remaing water is then treated by my city`s sanitary sewer system as per regulations. Washing cars is not a major part of our business and as such we neither use a lot of water nor produce significant runoff. Does it cost me a lot of money to do so? Depends on how you look at it I guess. We pay a hefty premium each month for water and a sanitary sewer surcharge plus must pump our holding tanks as needed and dispose properly as per the law requires. If we did not have this setup I would be dealing with the issue accordingly in spite of the fact that there is zero enforcement here without a complaint. It`s part of the cost of doing business.



It`s also not about me being pissed about mobile detailers or guys undercutting my prices. Irrelevant in my neck of the woods due to the weather. I have seen one mobile guy try to start up a business up here and I think he lasted 2 months (and that was in the summer). Let`s put that argument to rest. I don`t make my money from washing cars so I have NO vested interest in this issue other than feeling it is the right thing to do. Do we wash cars? Yes. It makes up like 0.05 % of my business though.

[Lenny]

I`ll try to address you back point by point:

Originally posted by ShineShop

Let`s try and address this point by point:



"During my career I`ve had long, LONG discussions with the directors of the facilities I`ve called on. wblynch is 100% correct in saying that there is no pollution (worth speaking of) coming from driveway washing."



According to whom? You? I have heard several calls for actual scientific data to back up people`s claims so far - where are yours? Or should I just assume you are correct because you talk to some wastewater facility employees?

I tried researching any scientific data regarding the contaiminate of fresh water bodies by people washing their cars, and found nothing. I found plenty of documents from commercial car wash industry trade groups, advocating the banning of driveway car washing, read them, and found that they had not quoted any scientific studies. I`m not saying there aren`t any - I`m saying the industry tradeg groups pushing for the ban aren`t quoting any.

"Every damn waste water plant I spoke was extremely concerned with do-it-yourselfers: Oil changes (one quart of oil will contaminate 100,000 gallons of drinking water), leaky engine and transmission gaskets, lawn chemicals, salt and ice melt on driveways and sidewalks. Not one <edited> d*amn time did I ever hear anyone mention washing your car in your driveway as a cause of concern."



Interesting because there are communities all over North America that are concerned with just that. I don`t dispute that all the pollutants you listed are cause for concern - prove that watse water from car washing is not and we`ll be done here.

Not here in Michigan, not in Ohio or Indiana. I asked a friend to check in Illinois (He lives in Chicago) and he came up with nothing. We found plenty of comments in the press very, very concerned with Lawn fertilizers, pesticides and herbicides. Some commetns on oil changes. Nothing on Car washes.



I also did an internet search for anything I possiblely missed. The only concern ever expressed had to do with water conservation - lawn watering bans included with them, something we have had on occassion here in the Detroit area, but nothing regarding pollution, PERIOD.



Another thing: I understated how much water a quart of oil will contaiminate. The stated industry figures is from 250,000 gallons to a million gallons.

I heard them complain, bitterly, plenty of times about commercial car washes, and about recycling tank overflows into the storm sewers, especially because of the harsher pH of some commercial car wash detergents, but not one damn time in ten years did I ever hear them call out DIY car washing in your driveway as a pollution problem. If these guys aren`t calling it a problem, then just who is?



"These guys" are not the guys doing the research are they? They are charged with implementing environmental policy - nothing more. I challenge you to find one of your "wastewater managers" that actually has one ounce of say so with respect to research and policy concerns.

True, they are implementing policy. Are you saying, that as a part of their duties as municple wate water treatment plant managers (City Department Directors in most cases), they aren`t privy to the latest research? Each and every one I called on had volumnes of EPA reports in their office as a matter of course. I challenge you to know what you`re talking about before making a statement like that.

"No one is sticking their heads in the sands, pal. It that no one wants to go through yet another environmentalist-politician scam that takes aim at the Little Guy, because the big guys have too many resources to fight change with."



I think you need to stop taking your paranoia pills. No one is "out to get you" here or any other "little guy". I cannot really see that anyone has anything to gain from stopping you from washing your car and discharging the water into the storm drain. Please explain how someone is going to get rich off this "scam". It`s about cleaning up and preserving the water supply here - nothing else.

One, the sarcasm isn`t appreciated. Two, it was SState of Michigan government officals who made the charge that tailpipe emmsion testing was aimed at the "little guy" because of the large company and industry trade group lobbyists protecting the large polutors.



And no one said "rich" necissarily, but it stands to reason that if you ban driveway washing , someone else is going to financially benefit.

"Watch your mouth when you accuse people of sticking their heads in the sand. Most of us are not only aren`t sticking our heads in the sand, our eyes are wide open enough to see a political scam when it rears it`s ugly head. This is definitely one of those times."



IF you honestly believe that washing the pollutants off your car at home or in the street and allowing the pollutants and soaps/cleaners/detergents run off into the water supply is not polluting than I don`t know what to say. Maybe you aren`t sticking your head in the sand - perhaps somewhere else? All sarcasm aside, I don`t want to take it to that level. Your individual carwash may be insignificant as a single source of pollution - that`s true. The MILLIONS of carwashes done every day combined are not - that`s a fact. If you simply DO NOT COMPREHEND THIS then there is simply no point in debating this with you any further.

Someone else pointed this out:



Rain. Rain will also do the same thing that washing the car in your driveway will do. And the rain off buildings is more of a concern than rain off cars or car washing. Ford Motor Company built a new truck plant in Dearborn, with the world largest LICVING roof, to use the plants to capture and filter the rainfall. Link 1 Link 2



And as I stated earlier, there is little to no documentation of concern over even the millions of individual car washes....except the self-serving pressreleases and trade publications articles from the commercial car wash industry themselves. As they would be the beneficiary of such a driveway washing ban, anything they say is automatically suspect.

[Lenny]

ShineShop & I briefly exchanged emails, and he asked why I don`t hit the quarter car wash to wash mine there, and I think I should also post my reply (& elaborate on it a bit more) here:



Hit the quarter car wash instead of my driveway. Let`s see if I can make my point brief:



Never.



Most of the quarter car washes around here not only have tossed people out for bringing their own buckets, they`ve gone to the trouble of calling the cops when they catch you a second or a third time. And NONE of the five in my area (I`m in Westland, on the westside of Detroit, if you look at a map of area Detroit, look for I-96, I-275, and M-14, and you`re in the area) recycle the water (that I`m aware of)- they are all either hooked into the storm sewer system or the sanitary sewer system, and that includes a brand new one 1/2 mile from my subdivision.



And again, the whole SouthEast Michigan area is under a federal court order regarding water treatment.



I have plenty of experience in environmental sales, and the research I did after this thread started has only made me angrier:



Nothing but industry trade association articles without a shred of scientific evidence quoted. More & more it looks like an attempt from the commercial car wash industry to lobby for a driveway car washing ban that will financially benefit them. Benefit them, and take away retail sales of some of the detailing supplies, from retailers that vary from Walmart & Target, to Autozone and smaller regional autoparts stores, to on-line retailers.



Yea, I`m going to look at this idea of a driveway car wash ban with an open mind. NOT.