Real important to wait 12 hours...

[Bill87GN]

Is it real important to wait 12+ hours between topping NXT with a carnuba?

What will be the problems if I don`t?

TIA

[togwt]

~ One man’s opinion / observations ~



Q: Is it real important to wait 12+ hours between topping NXT with a carnuba?

A: Yes

Q: What will be the problems if I don`t?

A: Product will not cross-link (cure) and durability will be compromised.



Bonding and Cross-Linking Process:

First, and most importantly, thoroughly prepare your paint film surface, wash, use detailer`s clay, polish and apply a pre-wax Cleaner



Adherence- the application of a thin even film of product to the paint film surface bonds by surface tension



Drying- the primary catalyst is an aerobic process so sufficient drying time should be allowed. This will vary in accordance with the product formulation, temperature and humidity of the ambient air.



Removal- remove product residue by buffing, using a clean dry towel and a light even pressure



Cross-linking – allow sufficient time (anything from 12 to 72 hours dependant upon product formulation) to elapse to enable product to cross-link (cure) before the application of further layers or other products. Avoid rain or washing vehicle until fully cured.





~Hope this helps ~



Knowledge unshared is experience wasted

justadumbarchitect / so I question everything/ Jon

[Bill87GN]

Great info as always, thanks Jon

[Mr. Chemist]

Huh?

[ZaneO]

Originally posted by Mr. Chemist

Huh?

Too much for the Chemist to understand?

[flyinhigh]

LMAO!!!

MR.Chemist if you know something different,then please explain .

Or did he just not respond in your scientific,Doctorate lingo??

[Mr. Chemist]

Using the most effective terms to answer the initial question.... it may be important with some products, that you allow them to dry completely before applying another coating.

[togwt]

~ One man’s opinion / observations ~



I have always tried to find out not just “How it works, but also “Why� it works. With that in mind I probably respond with more detail than some think is necessary. But I try to write in a way that helps the reader to understand not only "How" to do something, but "Why" they are doing it.



If the terminology is incorrect please feel free to offer your opinion, so we may all learn something.



I’m just a dumb Architect, so I have always tried to learn from other people. Even after five decades of detailing, the more I learn, the more I realize what I don’t know, and at some point, I hope to have learned enough to realize that I know nothing at all. I



~Hope this helps ~





Knowledge unshared is experience wasted

justadumbarchitect / so I question everything/ Jon

[imported_memnuts]

Originally posted by TOGWT

~ One man’s opinion / observations ~



I hope to have learned enough to realize that I know nothing at all.

Jon extremely profundus and so very true. Every answer opens the doors to many questions. :xyxthumbs

[rstype]

Originally posted by TOGWT

~ One man`s opinion / observations ~



Q: Is it real important to wait 12+ hours between topping NXT with a carnuba?

A: Yes

Q: What will be the problems if I don`t?

A: Product will not cross-link (cure) and durability will be compromised.



Bonding and Cross-Linking Process:

First, and most importantly, thoroughly prepare your paint film surface, wash, use detailer`s clay, polish and apply a pre-wax Cleaner



Adherence- the application of a thin even film of product to the paint film surface bonds by surface tension



Drying- the primary catalyst is an aerobic process so sufficient drying time should be allowed. This will vary in accordance with the product formulation, temperature and humidity of the ambient air.



Removal- remove product residue by buffing, using a clean dry towel and a light even pressure



Cross-linking allow sufficient time (anything from 12 to 72 hours dependant upon product formulation) to elapse to enable product to cross-link (cure) before the application of further layers or other products. Avoid rain or washing vehicle until fully cured.

One thing to point out, though, is that these rules apply only to crosslinking, polymer sealants like SG or Z. My suspicion is that NXT is not a crosslinking, polymer sealant, and therefore there`s no need for Bill87GN to wait 24 hours before topping it with wax. And here`s why:

Originally posted by DETAILKING, Chemical Engineer

In most cases, the presence of an "oil" will inhibit the crosslinking, bonding, curing, and physical properties of a polymer. On a molecular level, the oils inhibit the polymer from becoming the solid structure that it wants to be. In large proportions, an oil will hinder the crosslinking (act as a barrier between chains) and you will be left with a pile of goo. In smaller proportions, if the oil was even compatible with the system in the first place, the oil will weaken the backbone structure of the polymer by preserving the "fluid" (flowing) properties to the crosslinking substance. This will effect overall hardness, durability, cure time, and bonding.

Since we`re given that NXT contains oils, and that oils do not allow polymers to crosslink, we can assume that NXT does not crosslink. And since we`re given that the 24 hour curing time only applies to sealants that crosslink and change, we know that these rules do not apply to NXT. Therefore, we can conclude that Bill87GN can immediately top NXT with a carnauba.



(Ah, good `ol proofs)

Originally posted by TOGWT

I have always tried to find out not just how it works, but also why it works. With that in mind I probably respond with more detail than some think is necessary. But I try to write in a way that helps the reader to understand not only "How" to do something, but "Why" they are doing it.

I agree completely. It puts me off when people think all that matters are the results. But as evidenced above, knowing why things work, what things are made of, etc, can save time and improve results.

[BillNorth]

Originally posted by TOGWT

~ One man’s opinion / observations ~



I have always tried to find out not just “How it works, but also “Why� it works. With that in mind I probably respond with more detail than some think is necessary. But I try to write in a way that helps the reader to understand not only "How" to do something, but "Why" they are doing it.



If the terminology is incorrect please feel free to offer your opinion, so we may all learn something.



I’m just a dumb Architect, so I have always tried to learn from other people. Even after five decades of detailing, the more I learn, the more I realize what I don’t know, and at some point, I hope to have learned enough to realize that I know nothing at all. I



~Hope this helps ~





Knowledge unshared is experience wasted

justadumbarchitect / so I question everything/ Jon

Very true Jon, very true. :up



I have to remind myself of this (that I know nothing ) everyday.



Bill.

[Mr. Chemist]

Well...I`m just a dumb ol formulator of car care products...but I guess I`ll just have to eat some crow here..I never should have posted "Huh?"



It`s started far too much trouble. What I did do, was PM TOGWT, with what I believe to be some serious misuse of the English language, specifically chemical terminology...since he has asked me to share this with you...here goes.

------------------

"I`m a bit confused about some of the terminology used in your post about letting NXT cure for 12 hours before applying a carnauba wax topper.



Although I believe your advice and initial reasoning to be sound, the verbiage used to describe the simple process of drying and curing is confusing.



1. Paint film surface



Do you mean paint?



2. Bonds by surface tension?



Surface tension has to do with liquids and their flowing properties as affected by either their composition or the substrate upon which they are placed and has nothing to do with bonding.



Bonding in simple terms is having stuff stick either together, or in the case of polishes and waxes…to the paint.



3. Catalyst is a process?



No, a catalyst is a substance of which a fractional percentage notably affects the rate of a chemical reaction, without itself being consumed or undergoing a chemical change. Air, when used as a drying agent, goes through a chemical change and is not a catalyst. Air is simply important in having things dry and cure.



4. Aerobic?



This is a biology term used to describe types of bacteria and what they need to thrive, oxygen. To use the term in the realm of car care is confusing.



You had it right at the beginning of your post….the proper word for the process is to cure.



5. “Ambient air�



Is there any other kind around a car? I have heard of ambient temperature, which is the temperature of a particular environment.



I think we do our fellow enthusiasts a greater service when we speak in terms that can be readily understood and that we have a firm understanding of."

--------------------

Now...I don’t want to cause a fuss, but I figure if your going teach someone something.... use the right words and terms. Other wise we`ll have a bunch of bacteria running around trying to make car wax dry....wait a minute we may be on to something here....



Seriously...using chemical terms incorrectly does not educate, it miss-informs.



Personally I don’t want to become a chemistry teacher, at this point, I prefer to emphasize process and product. I`m just a formulator, I`ll leave that education stuff up to the chemical engineers...but if I see something that is really out of whack...I will mention it. Hopefully in the future I will get better at it..but hey I’m a nubi here. This is not as much fun as my beakers.

[Mr. Chemist]

BW...here`s a thought...

Now to an interesting question about cross linking and oils....could it be that a certain amount of oil in a formulation would be beneficial...that is although it may interfere slightly with the cross linking process, it does not halt it completely...and the benefit derived from the addition of the oil would outweigh the slight negative effect on durability...in other words a good trade off....So, I don’t think you can say categorically that a product with some oil in it does not cross link...it`s just that the process may not be as complete as it could have been without the oil. Also, we would not want "complete" cross linking to occur as then it would be "like paint"...very hard and could chip, fade and peel, much like those acrylic coatings of a decade ago that caused so much trouble. They really cured hard.

[sgo]

Originally posted by Mr. Chemist

Well...I`m just a dumb ol formulator of car care products...but I guess I`ll just have to eat some crow here..I never should have posted "Huh?"



Seriously...using chemical terms incorrectly does not educate, it miss-informs.



Personally I don’t want to become a chemistry teacher, at this point, I prefer to emphasize process and product. I`m just a formulator, I`ll leave that education stuff up to the chemical engineers...but if I see something that is really out of whack...I will mention it. Hopefully in the future I will get better at it..but hey I’m a nubi here. This is not as much fun as my beakers.

Great post! Very valid points. However, your answer brings up a slighly off-topic question. What`s the difference between a "formulator" and a "chemical engineer?"

[DETAILKING]

Air, when used as a drying agent, goes through a chemical change and is not a catalyst. Air is simply important in having things dry and cure.



----------> Can you be more specific on what type of "chemical change" the air goes through? What does it change to? Or does the air just aid in the evaporation of solvent? Lot`s of polymers are Air Cured, moisture cured,etc. Wouldn`t you say that the Air and/or moisture (humidity) acts as a catalyst if an excess of it speeds up the curing process?





BW...here`s a thought...

Now to an interesting question about cross linking and oils....could it be that a certain amount of oil in a formulation would be beneficial...that is although it may interfere slightly with the cross linking process, it does not halt it completely...and the benefit derived from the addition of the oil would outweigh the slight negative effect on durability...in other words a good trade off....So, I don’t think you can say categorically that a product with some oil in it does not cross link...it`s just that the process may not be as complete as it could have been without the oil. Also, we would not want "complete" cross linking to occur as then it would be "like paint"...very hard and could chip, fade and peel, much like those acrylic coatings of a decade ago that caused so much trouble. They really cured hard.



---------------------------------------->If the oil interferes even slightly with the crosslinking and decreases the "much sought after durability" that people seek, why include it in a formulation? What benefit does it have in a polymer formulation? I don`t agree with the "complete crosslinking" statement as the physical properties of a final cured polymer depend more on which ones are used to begin with. Not every polymer that is completelly crosslinked is hard, brittle, chips, fades,etc. Different polymers have different properties. Selection is important. If an oil is added in order to attain some desirable properties at the expense of durability, it sounds like someone better go back to the benchtop.......