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  1. #166
    Super Moderator Pats300zx's Avatar
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    Re: Pan The organizer fee leak lawyers involved LMAO

    Apex`s fb group is infiltrated with all kinds of artdeshine and apex groupies. They get very emotional. And IMO artdeshine is not an honest company. In regards to the marketing. I posted that too and i was blocked shortly after. I guess the thorns came out after that. The Artdeshine groupie`s probably lost it.
    It`s the same with any of those FB groups that become large when one brand is involved. For example take a look at the DPC FB group. When Scott released his coating line there were serious issues with it. You could not even speak about anything derogatory about the products in the group without getting flamed. The same holds true for the Apex group now. I used to have a lot of respect for Brian but it`s clear to me that as things got larger he just started chasing the dollar. These groups become large and almost "cult like".
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  2. #167
    BudgetPlan1's Avatar
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    Re: Pan The organizer fee leak lawyers involved LMAO

    Quote Originally Posted by William_Wallace View Post
    Pans definitely not reviewing product he demonstrating a product.
    At the end of the day, even the most unbiased of YouTube idols is giving you nothing more than a demonstration and their opinion so in all cases, Caveat Emptor. To wit:

    - I believe the Obsessed Garage guy recommends Gtechniq CSL + EXO...topped with Beadmaker. Some disagreement could definitely be found with that choice.

    - Apex likes to toss the glossmeter on everything, noting that he considers things a success when they lead to readings of 100+ GU`s; drops the glossmeter on a few panels, 3 outta 5 top the 100 mark so it is considered `good`, but perhaps "60% good" is more accurate. Toss in the fact that he now has his own line of products and well...how is he to judge any LSP without an eye towards his products now?

    - The Australian guy compared Kami Miyabi, a 2 layer 18-24 month product to NV Nova EVO, a 1 layer, 36 month product and declared Nova EVO to be the best choice, throwing in a totally subjective mention of appearance as a qualifier. As one who has used Miyabi, ISM 1.0 & EVO, NV Nova EVO is certainly closer to Kami ISM 1.0 (1 layer, 24-36 month longevity) in both application and longevity...and overall appearance as well.

    - The instigator of this mess, Scott HD has made his bones largely on his "42 way coating test" in which he tried a lot of coatings on a test panel that sat outside his shop. For me that would indicate what might be the best choice if I had a 73 Impala up on cinder blocks in my back yard that I wanted to protect but might be a little different on a car that, oh...I dunno, actually moves on occasion?

    End of the day, especially where LSP`s are concerned, trying to wrap things up in a 12-minute video gives nothing more than an indication of how it applies and looks soon after curing; anything else is conjecture but folks accept it because these are the `experts` after all.

    As far as compensation goes, I`d guess that ALL of them receive something in return, albeit perhaps not something as tangible as cold, hard cash. Greater exposure for their own `brand` in general, the opportunity to sell branded merchandise (usually very prominent below their video description), the chance to increase their subscriber base ("Don`t forget to click LIKE and SUBCRIBE buttons!") and, of course, YouTube revenue streams from the Likes and Subscribes.

    Heck, when I see that 7 folks from `Macau SAR China` clicked into the blog I keep my notes on, I`ll admit to thinking "Wow, that`s kinda cool..." which is an ego-based return on my ramblings; can`t buy so much as a cup of coffee from it but still it`s something "I get in return" if only in an intangible sense.

    I think Pan was kinda low-hanging fruit (was kinda obvious) which is why he was so easy to target but to think everyone else (including `Holier Than Thou Scott HD`) isn`t doing all of this for some kinda personal/professional gain is myopic. At the very least, he`s (Pan) the only one so far who got `caught` in such a public way.

    Now it`s certainly easy for me to sit back and pick apart some of these experts based on differences gleened from my own experiences but that`s kinda telling in and of itself; just because a Social Media personality says `X` doesn`t mean `Y` ain`t gonna be the reality when you give it a go.
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  3. #168
    William_Wallace's Avatar
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    Re: Pan The organizer fee leak lawyers involved LMAO

    Im waiting on Newmans Own ceramic coating
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  4. #169
    BudgetPlan1's Avatar
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    Re: Pan The organizer fee leak lawyers involved LMAO

    Quote Originally Posted by William_Wallace View Post
    I’m waiting on Newman’s Own ceramic coating
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  5. #170
    Mike The Guz's Avatar
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    Re: Pan The organizer fee leak lawyers involved LMAO

    As the old saying goes, never meet your heroes
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  6. #171
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    Re: Pan The organizer fee leak lawyers involved LMAO

    Pan the Ponzi Schemer
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  7. #172
    William_Wallace's Avatar
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    Re: Pan The organizer fee leak lawyers involved LMAO

    Quote Originally Posted by Swanicyouth View Post
    Pan the Ponzi Schemer
    It does role off the tongue quite well!
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  8. #173
    Loach's Avatar
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    Re: Pan The organizer fee leak lawyers involved LMAO

    I`m on the side where if you`re disclosing business information that is clearly intended to be left confidential, especially when this was explicitly instructed by one party, and you release that information anyways in an attempt to produce some type of hit piece against said individual, that is absolutely ridiculous in my book. I don`t care if an NDA wasn`t signed, this is basic business ethics. I also don`t care how far south the negotiations may have gone.

    Here`s all Undrdog had to say in this case once it was understood that negotiation terms couldn`t be met: (Hi Pan, we`re unable to agree to terms in this case, thanks for showing interest in our products and reaching out, we wish you best.) Done, next email. Business is literally that simple until egos get in the way of common sense decency in my own business experience.

    Pan has put the effort and investment in to build a channel and brand that carriers a very large value for detailing businesses. A 600K subscriber channel commands a large advertising potential, and his content is literally the perfect type for him to be charging for his time to partner with businesses that want to get the name out about their brands or new product offerings.

    Not only that, but the trickle down trending effect of someone like Pan highlighting a brand goes down through a wide pool of other content creators. Now you`ve got a flood of reviewers or influencers wanting to get their hands on the new hot Undrdog item that no one has heard about until Pan`s video put them on the map, most of which are just going to buy it outright, and it just ends up being free advertising further boosting the snowballing trend. IMO, $11K sounds like a bargain for a 600K channel to post a well organized, well produced overview of the brand highlighting the types of products they offer, especially when you factor in that trickle down effect. I certainly never heard of Undrdog until this monumental business fiasco came to light.

    You as a business are not offering paid sponsorships? You don`t want Pan in particular to do a video on your stuff? Ok, here`s what the response email should look like: (Hi Pan, we`re currently not offering paid sponsorships at this time, thanks for showing interest in our products and reaching out, we wish you best.) Pan`s reply doesn`t even need to be read at that point, next email.

    And what in the world is Scott HD thinking being the conduit to even produce a hit piece video? Scott already had the viewership momentum, his channel was already growing steadily, and the type of content that he`s producing is completely different than Pan`s and not in competition with each other. You don`t go from Scott`s channel to Pan`s channel, you get the overview from Pan`s channel and then you funnel into durability result videos like Scott`s. Pan`s videos existing doesn`t hurt your own content, you benefit from the amount of people that Pan brings into the detailing realm that will eventually land onto your own videos when YouTube decides to recommend them to viewers that were watching Pan`s channel.

    You want to say you`re the unbiased source, you`re the peak of objective testing and reviewing, you`re not "bought and paid for"? Fine, say that in your videos, keep doing the videos that you`re doing, it doesn`t mean you have to cancel someone else who is doing a different style of video, who has a very strong case to be charging for his work, time, quality, and most importantly access to his large viewership as I already stated above. Not only that, Pan has been disclosing paid sponsorships as is required by the FTC, no channel as big as his is going to risk being fined through non-disclosure.

    Everyone can say what they want about Pan, the reality for me is he has earned every single one of those 600,000+ subscribers. His videos are well organized, well presented, easy to follow, packed with information, not dry, and those are the exact reasons why so many people have subscribed to his channel. Obviously he`s doing something right, and the idea that we have to police the "bias" of individuals over disclosed sponsorships or police company`s that offer sponsorships is ridiculous. The idea that sponsored or paid content shouldn`t exist is ridiculous. And the manner by which private business emails were disclosed without the knowledge or consent over something as basic as terms of contract is ridiculous as stated.

    Won`t stop me from watching either channel. I love Scott`s durability result videos. I`ve also met Pan in person and never got the impression that he`s just some scamming doucher milking off an easy topic. Not to speak for him, but I get the impression that it`s a genuine and strong passion about detailing that is the reason why he`s not going to sit by and take heat or criticism that he doesn`t believe is warranted. You might disagree with that, you might not agree with how he defends himself, but he`s in his videos responding to a massive amount of replies and questions and he`s active on a lot of other channels. I even saw him in Chelsea`s channel leaving a comment giving her props for her review on Undrdog`s coating weeks before this fiasco went down, before she was dragged into this mud for picking a side in Scott`s video in the comments over a non-issue. Won`t stop me from watching her channel either, she`s also got great content in my opinion. But the passion Pan has for detailing is genuine, and he`s identified, understood, and facilitated a fantastic platform with YouTube to showcase that passion and be lucky enough to make a good living doing so.

    Bonehead video from Scott over a non-issue in my opinion. Really bonehead business decision from Undrdog, especially leaking the private contract details.
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  9. #174
    wannafbody
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    Re: Pan The organizer fee leak lawyers involved LMAO

    Quote Originally Posted by William_Wallace View Post
    I’m waiting on Newman’s Own ceramic coating


    Paul Newman was an awesome guy. Everything made from that line of products went to charity. I kind of wish Jay Leno did something similar with his car care line.

    Undrdog is free to disseminate information as they see fit providing their isn`t a legal contract prohibiting it. The reality is that Scott HD is as well. Agree or disagree.

    As for "influencers" a lot of what takes place is that sector is shady. Lots of people line up to buy the goods.
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  10. #175
    William_Wallace's Avatar
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    Re: Pan The organizer fee leak lawyers involved LMAO

    Comes to mind when dueling for YouTube supremacy
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  11. #176

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    Re: Pan The organizer fee leak lawyers involved LMAO

    Quote Originally Posted by Loach View Post
    I`m on the side where if you`re disclosing business information that is clearly intended to be left confidential, especially when this was explicitly instructed by one party, and you release that information anyways in an attempt to produce some type of hit piece against said individual, that is absolutely ridiculous in my book. I don`t care if an NDA wasn`t signed, this is basic business ethics. I also don`t care how far south the negotiations may have gone.

    Here`s all Undrdog had to say in this case once it was understood that negotiation terms couldn`t be met: (Hi Pan, we`re unable to agree to terms in this case, thanks for showing interest in our products and reaching out, we wish you best.) Done, next email. Business is literally that simple until egos get in the way of common sense decency in my own business experience.

    Pan has put the effort and investment in to build a channel and brand that carriers a very large value for detailing businesses. A 600K subscriber channel commands a large advertising potential, and his content is literally the perfect type for him to be charging for his time to partner with businesses that want to get the name out about their brands or new product offerings.

    Not only that, but the trickle down trending effect of someone like Pan highlighting a brand goes down through a wide pool of other content creators. Now you`ve got a flood of reviewers or influencers wanting to get their hands on the new hot Undrdog item that no one has heard about until Pan`s video put them on the map, most of which are just going to buy it outright, and it just ends up being free advertising further boosting the snowballing trend. IMO, $11K sounds like a bargain for a 600K channel to post a well organized, well produced overview of the brand highlighting the types of products they offer, especially when you factor in that trickle down effect. I certainly never heard of Undrdog until this monumental business fiasco came to light.

    You as a business are not offering paid sponsorships? You don`t want Pan in particular to do a video on your stuff? Ok, here`s what the response email should look like: (Hi Pan, we`re currently not offering paid sponsorships at this time, thanks for showing interest in our products and reaching out, we wish you best.) Pan`s reply doesn`t even need to be read at that point, next email.

    And what in the world is Scott HD thinking being the conduit to even produce a hit piece video? Scott already had the viewership momentum, his channel was already growing steadily, and the type of content that he`s producing is completely different than Pan`s and not in competition with each other. You don`t go from Scott`s channel to Pan`s channel, you get the overview from Pan`s channel and then you funnel into durability result videos like Scott`s. Pan`s videos existing doesn`t hurt your own content, you benefit from the amount of people that Pan brings into the detailing realm that will eventually land onto your own videos when YouTube decides to recommend them to viewers that were watching Pan`s channel.

    You want to say you`re the unbiased source, you`re the peak of objective testing and reviewing, you`re not "bought and paid for"? Fine, say that in your videos, keep doing the videos that you`re doing, it doesn`t mean you have to cancel someone else who is doing a different style of video, who has a very strong case to be charging for his work, time, quality, and most importantly access to his large viewership as I already stated above. Not only that, Pan has been disclosing paid sponsorships as is required by the FTC, no channel as big as his is going to risk being fined through non-disclosure.

    Everyone can say what they want about Pan, the reality for me is he has earned every single one of those 600,000+ subscribers. His videos are well organized, well presented, easy to follow, packed with information, not dry, and those are the exact reasons why so many people have subscribed to his channel. Obviously he`s doing something right, and the idea that we have to police the "bias" of individuals over disclosed sponsorships or police company`s that offer sponsorships is ridiculous. The idea that sponsored or paid content shouldn`t exist is ridiculous. And the manner by which private business emails were disclosed without the knowledge or consent over something as basic as terms of contract is ridiculous as stated.

    Won`t stop me from watching either channel. I love Scott`s durability result videos. I`ve also met Pan in person and never got the impression that he`s just some scamming doucher milking off an easy topic. Not to speak for him, but I get the impression that it`s a genuine and strong passion about detailing that is the reason why he`s not going to sit by and take heat or criticism that he doesn`t believe is warranted. You might disagree with that, you might not agree with how he defends himself, but he`s in his videos responding to a massive amount of replies and questions and he`s active on a lot of other channels. I even saw him in Chelsea`s channel leaving a comment giving her props for her review on Undrdog`s coating weeks before this fiasco went down, before she was dragged into this mud for picking a side in Scott`s video in the comments over a non-issue. Won`t stop me from watching her channel either, she`s also got great content in my opinion. But the passion Pan has for detailing is genuine, and he`s identified, understood, and facilitated a fantastic platform with YouTube to showcase that passion and be lucky enough to make a good living doing so.

    Bonehead video from Scott over a non-issue in my opinion. Really bonehead business decision from Undrdog, especially leaking the private contract details.

    Are you saying that there was a private contract between Pam the Organizer and Undrdog?

    Aren`t you a youtuber??

  12. #177

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    Re: Pan The organizer fee leak lawyers involved LMAO

    Loach - I love your content and look forward to watching more of your videos in the future as I find your testing genuinely insightful - unlike Pan`s. He without doubt has a market... good production quality, well explained, entry level content akin to reading the back of the bottle / manufacturers blurb. There are evidently many people in Canada/the US who have difficulty reading said back of the bottle instructions, hate doing research.. those same people probably watch shopping channels which themselves do not `review` but instead `showcase`. Those same people probably buy a spray wax a month - so credit where credit is due.

    Scott`s channel, while it has it`s own limitations would cater for those who are professional or `enthusiast /enthusiast-plus` for which there is a much smaller market and commercialisation opportunity. He does have a really strong USP, like yourself. You guys are about the only ones doing any form of longevity testing. Jon @ Forensic is the funny, informal neighbour you could only hope to have & has good intentions. Guys like Jim White (White Details) have such incredible working technique as professionals that I watch on in awe. Sandro is without doubt my favourite, he is probably the best rounded combination of high quality working technique as a professional detailer, combined with the gold standard of objective product reviews (v surprised you thought otherwise Budget - though I do note his relationship with NV!) for a geeks like myself who don`t believe a word of what any manufacturer says in the marketing blurb. The problem is that there isn`t enough of those reviews.. which is where Brian`s channel is an encyclopedia in comparison! I find Brian to be such a likeable and helpful guy but as above, I try to extract the good bits and zone out when I see the dodgy gloss meter or talk of one-stepping medium clear with a UroFibre pad... ouch! In summary, get your information from many different trusted sources and if they`re all lining up, 99% of the time you can make a solid buying decision with limited bias. Combined with these forums YouTubers are a fantastic `screen` and about the only reason I haven`t yet bankrupt myself because of this crazy hobby!
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  13. #178
    wannafbody
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    Re: Pan The organizer fee leak lawyers involved LMAO

    Anymore facts are determined by worldview not by thorough investigation, at least for some people.

  14. #179
    BudgetPlan1's Avatar
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    Re: Pan The organizer fee leak lawyers involved LMAO

    Quote Originally Posted by atbalfour View Post
    ... (v surprised you thought otherwise Budget - though I do note his relationship with NV!)
    Not really an observation on objectivity, after using both I agree fully with the conclusions. It was just an apples-to-oranges kinda situation for me with the products.

    Heck, his presence, presentation and production and the trust they promote are first rate, enough so that it piqued my interest in NV Nova, enough to give it a try. So far, so good.

    It`s more to the point that any review, evaluation, comparison etc. has an opinion in there somewhere and opinions are generally far from universal facts. That`s neither good nor bad, either...just is what it is.

    I guess thats what the good YouTubers in this space do, engender trust and the subscribers come clicking.
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  15. #180

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    Re: Pan The organizer fee leak lawyers involved LMAO

    Quote Originally Posted by BudgetPlan1 View Post
    Not really an observation on objectivity, after using both I agree fully with the conclusions. It was just an apples-to-oranges kinda situation for me with the products.

    Heck, his presence, presentation and production and the trust they promote are first rate, enough so that it piqued my interest in NV Nova, enough to give it a try. So far, so good.

    It`s more to the point that any review, evaluation, comparison etc. has an opinion in there somewhere and opinions are generally far from universal facts. That`s neither good nor bad, either...just is what it is.

    I guess thats what the good YouTubers in this space do, engender trust and the subscribers come clicking.
    Confirmation bias comes to mind with youtube reviewers.

    And when did so many people become lawyers? Who cares who/why someone posted Pan`s emails? Its funny. ```` happens all the time. (Not directed at anyone in particular.)

 

 
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