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  1. #16

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    Re: Suggestions for Ferrous-Iron Decontamonation Removers

    When you spray an IronX product on a clean paint with no oxidized iron particals on it. It`s ph neutral. But when you have oxidized iron particals on the paint and the reaction with the ironx is accuring that gets acidic. Before the IronX products there where acid to get the oxidized iron particals to desolve. Oxalic acid was the most used when doing this. Some acid wheel cleaners uses this still. Most of the bleeding wheel cleaners is just not concentrate enough IMO to be an effective iron remover. Sure you will see the bleeding effect. But does it desolve enough of the oxidized iron particals so they releases. Even some of the ironx products don`t do that either. And then of cause it`s the level of oxidized iron particals in that how long and how much the oxidation has been going on. If you where to use an iron remover as frequently as a wheel cleaner on the paint. You would not let to oxidize long and many bleeding iron remover would work good. But doing it once or twice a year you would like some effective ones. The Carpro IronX is known for being very effective and is in the top tier of bleeding iron removers. The one I have seen that makes IronX a run for it`s money is Bilt Hamber Korrosol. That would be very interesting to see how the newer iron remover products is standing up to them. I for an example have used a domestic brand of iron remover. And even if I got a great bleeding effect the first application. I sprayed it on a second time and got it to bleed again. And that says that the oxidized part of the iron partical has not been desolved thoroughly. Even if you get it to stop bleeding. It`s not a profe that the remaining iron partical has been released from the paint. That`s why a claying afterwards is a good thing to do to be certain to get it out of the clearcoat. <br>The oxalic acid that was used in the past took a long time to desolve the oxidized iron particals. And think that something like the acid in the Meguiars Wheel Brightener D140 is desolving the oxidized iron particals faster. But if you have the time and stay away from the clear plastic as headlights. The oxalic acid will be doing the work eventually. That`s the downside with most acidic chemicals that it haze clear plastic and etch the glass. And even haze the clearcoat some will do. So that`s why the bleeding iron remover has been a safer choice to use.<br><br>For heavy contaminants of iron particals I would use IronX. If I where to test another one I would be doing a test spot after the first application and see how it worked and I do that with IronX too lol. One thing that makes them more effective is aggitations with them. That makes me interested in the chemical resistant clay bars that Gyeon and Britemax has. To do the IronX products and the claying at the same time seems also to be time effective. And this is on paints that has not seen any iron remover for a long time. One thing that I do is also to do a tar remover before I apply the iron remover. This is so what ever oil based dirt around the iron particals is getting off first. So most of the iron particals get to be rinsed off after the oxidized part of the iron partical has been desolved. It`s getting more common to wash before rinsing off the IronX products. The only problem with that is a higher risk that the iron particals trapped in the wash mitt marring the paint. And that it could be embedded in the wash mitt even after a wash of it. So I would use a mitt that I could toss afterwards if doing that.

    If you want to have an iron remover that just works I would go with Carpro IronX. Then of cause it`s others that works too. But on heavy contaminants of iron particals I would not take the chance with another product. If you used IronX on your car before and looking for more product I would test another product. But I either way do a test spot on some places I have seen it bleed more.

    /Tony
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  2. #17

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    Re: Suggestions for Ferrous-Iron Decontamonation Removers

    Quote Originally Posted by rlmccarty2000 View Post
    I always wash after using an iron remover to ensure all of the iron remover is washed away. Then I clay the surface before I start to correct the paint. I wash after claying too.
    I neutralize with a base when I`ve used the acidic stuff (even though that`s not per instructions).

    Do you get much off when you clay afterwards? I`ve never had anything left after chemical decontamination, but then I clay the tenacious stuff during that process.

  3. #18

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    Re: Suggestions for Ferrous-Iron Decontamonation Removers

    SWETM- Yeah, it was oxalic acid that made Ketch leery of the FK product; he believed it to be at a "likely to etch" concentration.

    Wonder how the ph-neutral ones turn acidic in the presence of iron?

    Q: why the Tar Remover instead of something like "A"/FK1179? Not being critical at all, just wondering...

    I did use IronX once...never stopped bleeding and never removed what I was attacking. Might`ve just been a lost cause...

  4. #19
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    Re: Suggestions for Ferrous-Iron Decontamonation Removers

    Quote Originally Posted by Accumulator View Post
    I neutralize with a base when I`ve used the acidic stuff (even though that`s not per instructions).

    Do you get much off when you clay afterwards? I`ve never had anything left after chemical decontamination, but then I clay the tenacious stuff during that process.
    After a good wash and iron decon there is not much left to remove with clay except on seriously contaminated vehicles. Usually I hit them with a tar remover as part of a chemical decon. Pine tar and tree sap are big contaminants in my area. I can spend a long time trying to remove petrified pine tar as it takes repeated treatments to remove.

  5. #20

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    Re: Suggestions for Ferrous-Iron Decontamonation Removers

    Quote Originally Posted by rlmccarty2000 View Post
    ..Pine tar and tree sap are big contaminants in my area. I can spend a long time trying to remove petrified pine tar as it takes repeated treatments to remove.
    Ah, OK..I never seem to think of those! Yeah, I bet it is indeed a big job.

  6. #21

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    Re: Suggestions for Ferrous-Iron Decontamonation Removers

    Quote Originally Posted by Accumulator View Post
    SWETM- Yeah, it was oxalic acid that made Ketch leery of the FK product; he believed it to be at a "likely to etch" concentration.

    Wonder how the ph-neutral ones turn acidic in the presence of iron?
    The Ironx products accepts an H+, these Iron decontamination products are natively slightly basic, having a pH of 7.5, they are conjugate bases to (relative to original decontamination product) strong acids that result from the H+ donation to the decontamination product, thus creating a solution that is acidic enough to dissolve the iron. Of course I could be extremely wrong, as this gets into some pretty advanced organic chemistry, which I will never explore or take classes for.

  7. #22

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    Re: Suggestions for Ferrous-Iron Decontamonation Removers

    TheMeanGreen- Thanks, at least that`s more of a real explanation than I`d received from anybody else.

  8. #23

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    Re: Suggestions for Ferrous-Iron Decontamonation Removers

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMeanGreen View Post
    The Ironx products accepts an H+, these Iron decontamination products are natively slightly basic, having a pH of 7.5, they are conjugate bases to (relative to original decontamination product) strong acids that result from the H+ donation to the decontamination product, thus creating a solution that is acidic enough to dissolve the iron. Of course I could be extremely wrong, as this gets into some pretty advanced organic chemistry, which I will never explore or take classes for.
    During this electrochemical reaction the water soluble iron complex gets slightly acidic. And not so acidic so it`s harmfull to the surface materials on a car. Fabric tops is what I know of that you don`t use IronX on. Think it was on Forensic Detailing Chanel on Youtube that he did an in depth video of the bleeding iron removers. The chemical in Carpro IronX is what is used when you perm hair. Ammonium Thioglycolate is the name and can be other name too as ammonium salt. I`m no chemist so just snapp things up that I think is interesting. There are other bleeding chemicals that has the same reaction that IronX has. But as I understand it they are not so effective as the ammonium thioglycolate is. Some can even turn purple/red when you spray it out of the bottle and before it even touches the paint. And also bleeding on the paint without any ferrous iron on it. That`s why I are little sceptical to those with a high bleeding effect almost directly they hit the paint. And gets as a uniform red surface on the paint and not the spots that bleeds. That said it can be a light cover of ferrous iron on the paint that gives you that effect with IronX too. The point is that not every iron remover uses the same chemical to desolve oxidized iron particals. And there are a difference between them in effectiveness. There are also a sweet spot with the right amount of the chemical ATG that also can be a difference with the same chemical in it.

    Quated your post TheMeanGreen as to ad to the answer to accumulator.

    Accumulator is the first step in the FK ABC the alkaline part of the decon kit? In that case it can also desolve the grease and other contaminants that is on the wheels or paint. But I want to use a petroleum based degreaser or a solvent that effective desolve the tar spots and rubber residue and the oil based grime first after a thorough PW rinse. And also the material that is in the brake pads. I can also after the dwell of the tar remover spray on an alkaline based degreaser right over it. And let that dwell and rinse all of it off. That`s when I not foam with the foamcannon first as I use a TFR prewash foam which is slightly alkaline. This is to uncover the embedded iron particals so it`s not under any tar spots and rubber residue. So the degreasers first then move on to iron removal.

  9. #24
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    Re: Suggestions for Ferrous-Iron Decontamonation Removers

    I`m surprised no one mentioned McKee`s iron remover. I`ve used Iron-X, Optimum, and a few others. In my experience the McKee`s was a superior product.

  10. #25

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    Re: Suggestions for Ferrous-Iron Decontamonation Removers

    SWETM- Thanks for expanding on that explanation.

    Yeah, the "A" is highly alkaline (forget the actual ph). And yeah, I too always try to get everything that I can off before I deal with any ferrous contamination.

    The "A" or Fk1119 always seem to remove tar/etc. for me fine, but I can certainly understand your wanting to use the solvent. Different people dealing with different stuff in different ways

    Heh heh, my big take-home from these threads is that I`m glad I don`t have to actually *do* any decontamination on a remotely regular basis...who knows, I might *never* do another chemical decontamination again!
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  11. #26

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    Re: Suggestions for Ferrous-Iron Decontamonation Removers

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveT435 View Post
    I`m surprised no one mentioned McKee`s iron remover. I`ve used Iron-X, Optimum, and a few others. In my experience the McKee`s was a superior product.
    Would be intresting to see what chemical they use in their iron remover. And also in their wheel cleaner which seems to be very effective. Do you test to apply it again after the first application to see if you get any more bleeding?

    Don`t know what it is that makes we have a lot of embedded iron particals here in Sweden. Think it`s cause of the 4 winter months where it`s a law to use winter tires. And that more than half of the vehicals uses dubbed winter tires. Then most of the cars here is known for the amount of brake dust they produce. Wonders if most of the US brands of vehicals uses low dust brake pads. Will see if I can make my decon wash before the winter sets in and take some pictures of the bleeding action. I do that every spring and fall and it is alot of bleeding on the lower side panels and the back of the car every time. Would not be complaining if I could skip that step cause the smell is nasty LOL.
    The tar spots has been less since I started to maintain and have protection on the cars. And the iron partical has also been less. But they still gets there to be needed to take them off regualary.

    I`m very impressed how you maintain and how well your protection works accumulator.

  12. #27
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    Re: Suggestions for Ferrous-Iron Decontamonation Removers

    Pretty good discussion about iron removers over on Detailing World right now. They sell a few different ones over there but interesting none the less.
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  13. #28

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    Re: Suggestions for Ferrous-Iron Decontamonation Removers

    Quote Originally Posted by SWETM View Post
    Would be intresting to see what chemical they use in their iron remover. And also in their wheel cleaner which seems to be very effective.
    I believe the wheel cleaner uses salicylic acid or some salicylate because it`s low odor and more of red/orange rather than purple bleed.
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  14. #29

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    Re: Suggestions for Ferrous-Iron Decontamonation Removers

    Quote Originally Posted by SWETM View Post
    I`m very impressed how you maintain and how well your protection works accumulator.
    Well, the "impressive maintenance" is kinda mandatory since we need them to last...but thanks, I do appreciate that.

    And I bet nobody is more impressed, *surprised too*, at how well I`m doing with the approaches I`m using. I used to have *so* many rust-blooms and so much other contamination, but not any more. Lucky me
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  15. #30
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    Re: Suggestions for Ferrous-Iron Decontamonation Removers

    After doing a little research on products with thioglycolate and checking a few SDS I found that Gyeon claims to have 50% thioglycolate. Most of the others are in the 20-25% range. Learn something new everyday.
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