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  1. #1

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    Still getting holograms despite careful washing. Frustrated

    Car is a 2013 carbon steel gray VW GTI.

    3 weeks ago I washed my car using Optimum no rinse, and polished with a PC 7424, LC orange pad, Optimum polish, and waxed with a black pad and Meguiars 26. I carefully checked my work in a dark garage with daylight colored LED lights to ensure that swirls and defects have been removed.

    Today I washed my car for the first time since then, it has been about 3 weeks. My wash routine was:

    Rinse

    Two bucket wash with meguiars gold class soap and microfiber mitt.

    While washing, the mitt was kept soaking wet and on vertical panels I preceded the mitt with a running water hose to keep the paint adequately wet.

    Rinse

    Because it was a windy day and I didn`t want to get dirt on the car, I pulled it in the garage before drying. I then carefully patted the car dry with a Griots PFM towel.

    After this I turned off the lights in the garage and pulled out my LED lights and there were several areas along both sides and the rear hatch that had very light holograms. It is EXTREMELY frustrating that despite very careful washing I am somehow still marring the paint. I have no idea how this is happening. It would seem that my wash routine is careful enough to avoid such things. Any ideas?

    If it is not my wash routine the only thing I can think of is that some marring will occur naturally as I do a lot of driving for work, and spend a lot of time in close proximity to others and parking lots where someone could potentially bump or rub up against it when getting out of their car. But I have a feeling that is not the case.


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  2. #2
    Tc99m's Avatar
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    Re: Still getting holograms despite careful washing. Frustrated

    I have switched to a two bucket multiple mitt wash. For my dark blue Hyundai Sonata and Black Cadillac SRX I use 5-8 mitts. The first bucket is wash solution with mitts soaking up the suds. The second bucket collects used mitts only. This has greatly improved the marring! Especially on the black Cadillac!!
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  3. #3
    dansautodetailing.com Stokdgs's Avatar
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    Re: Still getting holograms despite careful washing. Frustrated

    Bill 1975 --
    I used to live in Dallas a long time ago, lived in Oak Cliff.. Attended Stevens Park Elementary and W.E. Greiner Jr. High up to 9th grade before we moved..
    Love Dallas, saw it grow to over 1 million !! Wow, times were so - less congested - even then..

    Sorry you are having this little challenge here..

    When you were washing any of those places that have the marring now, do you remember specifically going in those directions in those exact places??

    VW paint being kind of hard paint in my experiences, I just don`t see how you could have done that kind of marring with wet surfaces and media..

    Do you remember having to rub extra hard in that direction on that spot you pictured, when you were washing there ??

    When you said you used Optimum Polish - was it Optimum Hyper Polish ?

    I have a few microfiber mitts I never use, because I never liked the way they worked, which required much more pressure from my hand because they are so thin, ,so I just keep them in the cabinet, and switched to thick chenille mitts years ago and have never scratched anything..

    I also like Optimum Car Wash as its very sudsy, slippery, and does a great job of removing what little dirt I get on my Coated vehicles very quickly with no damage.. I usually put a glug of Optimum No Rinse in the bucket with the soap because I like the way it smells, and perhaps it even helps..

    On all lower panels, it is imperative to have lights down there at the correction phase, and I have to also get down there closely to make sure, I am not missing anything, looking at it from several angles..

    Also, I never use a rolling chair on the sides because you cannot get close enough to the work and put adequate, even, pressure on the rotary if you are fighting the chair wanting to roll backwards..

    I get on my knees and get up close and personal with the sides of all vehicles so those lower areas below the trim absolutely match the incredible clarity and gloss I have on the panels above the door trim, etc...

    Lastly, I never lay down to do the work either, because to me, you cannot get good, even, pressure and leverage with a machine in that manner..

    You know, the more I look at that picture, I dont think those long vertical short horizontal marks that are so uniform in size could have been done by your wash work.
    Did you put the edge of the pad on the sides of the paintwork ever?
    Dan F
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  4. #4

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    Re: Still getting holograms despite careful washing. Frustrated

    Hi Dan, I`m actually in Arlington right now, but yeah, that area of Oak Cliff is really nice, and has only gotten more popular (i.e - expensive!) over the last few years. I`ve been house hunting and much of that area is out of my price range unfortunately.

    I did not rub hard at all. I moved in horizontal motions, which up close, appears to be the direction of the marring, though it is hard to tell in the picture. I did two or three passes per section, without putting a lot of pressure on the mitt. Aside from the hatch, the car didn`t appear to be unusually dirty.

    Regarding the polishing, I used Optimum polish, not the hyper polish. It was a cream, not a spray (which I think HP is). When polishing those lower sections I sat on the floor, and moved the lights as I worked, just to be thorough. Edge of the pad didn`t touch the paintwork. I make an effort to keep it flat against the panel. The mitts are pretty plush, and I check them frequently for dirt or debris. the mitts I used can be found here: https://www.autopia-carcare.com/micr...l#.WoYPgujwbb0

    I will say I did not notice the same degree of marring, if any, on the fenders hood and bumper. But it was very prominent on drivers and passenger doors, rear quarter panel and hatch.
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  5. #5
    PRND[S]'s Avatar
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    Re: Still getting holograms despite careful washing. Frustrated

    Stokdgs is correct, VW paint is very hard. I suspect that either the polishing didn`t remove the swirls and you just covered them up with your LSP product, or the microfiber towel is contaminated or has exposed threads/a label.
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  6. #6

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    Re: Still getting holograms despite careful washing. Frustrated

    Quote Originally Posted by `PRND[S
    ;2130035`]Stokdgs is correct, VW paint is very hard. I suspect that either the polishing didn`t remove the swirls and you just covered them up with your LSP product, or the microfiber towel is contaminated or has exposed threads/a label.
    I`m positive the polishing removed the swirls before. I checked during and from several angles after. No tags or labels on any of my towels or mitts

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  7. #7
    dansautodetailing.com Stokdgs's Avatar
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    Re: Still getting holograms despite careful washing. Frustrated

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill1975 View Post
    I`m positive the polishing removed the swirls before. I checked during and from several angles after. No tags or labels on any of my towels or mitts

    Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk
    Bill1975 -
    Thanks for your reply ! Im glad you are still close by Big-D ! It was an awesome place to live back then..

    There was a municipal golf course close by on the other side of Fort Worth Blvd..

    There were a couple of holes right there just off the road; both 500 yards long, Par-5..
    My Dad would blast a 250-300 yard drive and be on the green Pin-High on his 2nd shot with an Iron..every time..

    I keep looking at those marks and they look to me to be narrow, tall, and the marring itself in a horizontal pattern the exact size of the entire tall, mark.. How does that happen so cleanly in so many places ?

    I think if you put them in there accidently, they would have to be more random horizontal lengths of marks per mark and not just tall and only so wide marks...

    Well, experiment.. Take them out, re wax the area, and look there again after washing it, or after the wax wears off, and see what happens..
    They cant possibly re-appear in that exact spot again unless they were never removed in the first place, right ?
    And you have a picture to compare with...
    Dan F

  8. #8

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    Re: Still getting holograms despite careful washing. Frustrated

    I may try that. I guess I just don`t know how they could have not been polished out in the first place. After polishing I went over each section with a mf towel and inspected carefully with a strong light. The only thing I can think of is I didn`t remove the polish completely and maybe some residue filled in the swirls. Then again I followed the same routine as the last time I polished it in the summer and don`t remember having this issue.

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  9. #9
    dansautodetailing.com Stokdgs's Avatar
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    Re: Still getting holograms despite careful washing. Frustrated

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill1975 View Post
    I may try that. I guess I just don`t know how they could have not been polished out in the first place. After polishing I went over each section with a mf towel and inspected carefully with a strong light. The only thing I can think of is I didn`t remove the polish completely and maybe some residue filled in the swirls. Then again I followed the same routine as the last time I polished it in the summer and don`t remember having this issue.

    Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk
    Bill1975 --

    Well, perhaps next time you polish/correct that side or the entire vehicle, how about you do a wipedown of the panel/s as you go, or at the end, before you apply your LSP, and see if that reveals anything that was hidden from view...

    I tried to research Optimum Polish II and all I could see was that it is NOT supposed to fill.. Never know until you try..

    Way over a decade ago, the idea to really clean paintwork after correction came out and since there were no dedicated cleaners on the Market yet, everyone tried various strengths of Isopropyl Alcohol that you buy at the Grocery Store, etc.. to accomplish this step with mixed results..

    Sometimes, it was said that this may soften paintwork or cause a reaction, etc., if used too heavily..

    So eventually - (where there is a slot, someone will market something there) - a few people came out with such a product and the best one I have found that I use prior to Coating is made by CarPro called CarPro Eraser, sold here ---- https://www.autopia-carcare.com/carp...l#.WoZYg655X3g
    This product absolutely works great for removing anything that is on the paintwork, especially oils, that will prevent a coating from adhering the best, and I use it all the time.. And it should work great at removing fillers if any are present..
    You got this..
    Dan F

  10. #10

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    Re: Still getting holograms despite careful washing. Frustrated

    Since you had looking after polishing. How about the machine applyied wax. Could it be that your black was dirty or got dirty during application. Does the marring following your application of the wax panel by panel? It`s hard to see only from pictures but it looks like buffer trails. Or does it follow your polishing work. Could it be that your pads got some of contaminants on them before or under polishing or waxing? How much pads are you useing of the orange and blacks and how did you clean them after last time you did this process? Does the polish and wax looks and feels like the last time? Are the mf mitts and mf drying towels almost new or you have used anyone alot? And do you wash them after each use or thoroughly rinse them out?
    Just try to help by asking you so you get another insight. And so can sort this out. Agree with that do a new test spot on a place that has this marring. And get some panel wipe like eraser or gyeon prep or ipa. Cause VW paints are more often rock hard clearcoats. Does not meaning it to be the case for your car. Some lighting can be decieving in that some scratches you see with led and some with halogen. Now it`s looks like you are useing the same lighting and you see a scratches anyways. And as you say it seems to be somewhere in your process you get them or you are not get them of in the first place just hidden.
    Hope you find the source in your process and can correct it. Doing the step on a small place from start to finish and look closely after each step. And I think you find where the problem is.
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  11. #11

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    Re: Still getting holograms despite careful washing. Frustrated

    Ok, so, with the morning off, I decided to try to re polish the door. Unfortunately I am almost out of polish so I won`t be able to do much more than that one panel.

    I inspected the car, and the first thing I noticed was there was no marring on the hood or front fenders. There was no marring the last time I detailed the car, either, so that should remove my wash process (sometimes ONR, sometimes two bucket with Megs Gold Class) from the list of problems. Also, a few isolated spots show some deeper swirls that look like someone rubbed up against the car, but most of it was the same type and degree that I thought I polished out last time. This lead me to think I didn`t do as good of a job as I thought I did a few weeks ago.


    So with that, I attacked the passenger door again. I did half of the door with this method, then repeated on the other half:

    Wash with ONR, dry with WW

    Polish, orange pad, Optimum Polish, this time at a higher speed, with slightly more pressure.

    Remove with yellow MF towel.

    Inspect with LED lights. Looks a lot better!

    Wash again with ONR. This time I can see some faint holograms in the paint.

    Polish again, trying a white pad.

    Remove polish, inspect. Better, but the more I look I can still see very faint holograms.

    Polish but back to orange pad. Remove polish, come inside for a cup of coffee.

    I`m going to head back out and give it another inspection before waxing, but my theory is: I likely didn`t remove as much as I thought I did last time. I know Optimum says there are no fillers in the polish, but after washing the panel again, some light marring was more apparent. This is either because there was a trace amount of polish remaining that hid the marring, or my eyes need time to adjust. I find metallic paint can play tricks with your eyes sometimes.

    Also, another poster asked about my MF towels. Some are quite old, and in fact, in the process today, I noticed some light swirls that happened after drying with an old WW towel. To be safe I`m going to buy some new MF and get rid of the old stuff. A couple of my pads have some dark stains in them, I don`t know I`d this is bad or not. I`m also going to find a polish that is slightly more aggressive. I would love any suggestions if anyone has experience with VW paint.


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  12. #12
    BudgetPlan1's Avatar
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    Re: Still getting holograms despite careful washing. Frustrated

    Are you using a panel wipe after polishing? Are you sure it`s not very, very light residue? I coated a car last summer (black) that despite going over with panel wipe, there was a very faint residue remaining that I didn`t notice until after done. It looked kinda like that in your first pic. ALso saw once when removing some 22ple Finitura...very faint residue that I only realized was on the surface when I would wipe horizontally and the residue `starburst` would be mostly vertical and when I wiped vertically, the `starburst` would then be mostly horizontal.

    Dunno, just throwing it out there.
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  13. #13

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    Re: Still getting holograms despite careful washing. Frustrated

    Quote Originally Posted by BudgetPlan1 View Post
    Are you using a panel wipe after polishing? Are you sure it`s not very, very light residue? I coated a car last summer (black) that despite going over with panel wipe, there was a very faint residue remaining that I didn`t notice until after done. It looked kinda like that in your first pic. ALso saw once when removing some 22ple Finitura...very faint residue that I only realized was on the surface when I would wipe horizontally and the residue `starburst` would be mostly vertical and when I wiped vertically, the `starburst` would then be mostly horizontal.

    Dunno, just throwing it out there.
    Well, I usually double check by wiping it with a mf to see if it changes direction. If it does, then it`s residue, but in this case it did not.

    As it turns out I had just enough polish to do the rear quarter panel too. I think I`m getting enough of the Polish removed to where I do not see that so-called Starburst effect, but when I rewash the panel I can see some very faint swirls and Holograms which leads me to believe they`re still little bit of residue left, which I then had to knock out with a second round of polishing.

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  14. #14
    dansautodetailing.com Stokdgs's Avatar
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    Re: Still getting holograms despite careful washing. Frustrated

    Bill1975 --
    Glad to see you are making progress!

    I would recommend you put downward pressure on the machine and pad. and run the machine at 6, high as it will go..

    You have German Paint, it`s always hard (except for Jet Black), and it needs lots of pad rotation and pressure to get all the defects out of it..
    Trust me on this, I have Detailed hundreds of German cars alone.. Love their paintwork on all the marques...

    Let`s make sure you are cleaning your pads with something that is going to remove all the gunk that gets built up in them..
    I like to use and have had the best success with Snappy Clean, a powder based cleaner sold here, that really cleans great and rinses out way easier than any "soaps" that seem to bubble up in the pads forever..

    And Snappy Clean is made by Lake Country - the same people who Make the pads... Here is the link -- https://www.autopia-carcare.com/snap...l#.WocySq55X3g

    What are you using to clean your microfibers ???
    I have the best results using a product specifically made for them.. Sometimes, I will add a little Distilled White Vinegar into the Rinse Cycle and seems to help the towels get cleaner, stay absorbent, and very soft..
    Here is a link to a great product - https://www.autopia-carcare.com/poor...l#.Wocy1655X3g

    It is also important to get microfibers that do not scratch.. I have only seen those yellow microfibers from Costco scratch really well when a Client brought in his Black Mercedes and it was covered in scratches from those towels, so dont use them ok ?

    It is true that some lights especially some LED`s are so bright that they actually hide some defects, so you need to have a balance of lights if youre doing this at night, etc.. I still have several older 250watt twin-bulb lights on stands that I like to use in addition to the LED light stands, and the 18 - 4-foot - 2-tube-shop lights in the ceiling...

    And as always, sometimes the best light ever is the sun if you can get it at the right angle on the paintwork for inspection after the work..
    Dan F
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  15. #15

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    Re: Still getting holograms despite careful washing. Frustrated

    Quote Originally Posted by Stokdgs View Post
    Here is a link to a great product - https://www.autopia-carcare.com/poor...l#.Wocy1655X3g
    I`ll second that, and I can be a detergent snob.

    ..It is true that some lights especially some LED`s are so bright that they actually hide some defects, so you need to have a balance of lights if youre doing this at night, etc..
    Same experiences here, it can indeed be too bright.

    .. I still have several older 250watt twin-bulb lights on stands that I like to use in addition to the LED light stands, and the 18 - 4-foot - 2-tube-shop lights in the ceiling...
    Same expereince also with the first part of that, but not with the second; under tubes I only see, uhm...broad-width marring and texture issues like orangepeel.

    And as always, sometimes the best light ever is the sun if you can get it at the right angle on the paintwork for inspection after the work..
    A few of us do find that certain artificial lights (e.g., my SunGun) can be better than the sun *IF* used in an otherwise dark environment. Mike P. once teased me about inspecting that way, saying it was so much more demanding than sunlight as to be unreasonable. (I didn`t say he was wrong...just that I`m the way I am.)
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