Orange peel paint job...what is acceptable?

[Boongie]

So I took the Camry back to the body shop. The production manager agreed with me about the fish eyes and the excessive orange peel in the paint. As suggested above, I set my expectations with the manager. Waiting now to see the results.

[Stokdgs]

In my experience Auto Painting, Fisheyes come from not having a perfectly clean surface, and not using the Fisheye preventer..
I am glad they are going to try to make this better.. I bet they will just sand it all down past all the defects, clean it up better this time, and reapply, minding how much product vs air is being sprayed..

Back in those days, all we had to clean the work with was a couple of different solvents, Prep-Sol and Enamel Reducer (if spraying acrylic lacquer), and then a good Tack Cloth to carefully go over the entire surface in the Booth right before spraying the paint..

If you accidently even touched the paintwork with even your fingertips, there was the chance that that spot/s would Fisheye on you, so you could never touch the vehicle with your bare hands - ever - once you started the clean process...

The Total Paint Thickness meter is just that - it will measure in mils, or microns, the Total thickness of what is on that spot it is placed on only..

Only the most expensive Meters, the DeFelsko - around $3,000, will give you a look at the individual layers of material, you have to determine what those layers could be, and if you don`t know the history of the paintjob, it will always be just a guess..

All I use my Meter for is to measure the Total Thickness in Microns, and then correct the spot, and determine how much of a Micron I removed to correct that spot, taking into account how much the Client is spending on this phase of the Detail..

Typically, I try to never remove more than 1/2 a Micron if at all possible..

Yes, one can take All the defects out of paintwork and perhaps remove a lot of the Clearcoat, and the next week the Client will get it all scratched up again..
Now, what do you do ????
Dan F

[Accumulator]

Boongie- It sounds like you`re on top of this, hope it turns out well.

Stokdgs- Yeah, everything you said. Especially that part about thinning clear that`s only gonna get promptly marred up again.

One Q though..."half a MICRON" or "half a MIL"? Heh heh, half a micron isn`t much even by my standards! Half a micron is nudging up against Ford`s recommendation, but they`re talking oe paint and repaints often have thicker clear (well, maybe..hopefully).

[Mike lambert]

Half a mil is over the life of the car to maintain integrity. Meaning UV protection. That is an industry standard, but what do you do when total paint is 2.5 mild on some of the newer Asian cars I’ve seen? The guys that say they get all the defects out no matter what, in my opinion are living on the edge and I hope they have good insurance!

[Stokdgs]

Boongie- It sounds like you`re on top of this, hope it turns out well.

Stokdgs- Yeah, everything you said. Especially that part about thinning clear that`s only gonna get promptly marred up again.

One Q though..."half a MICRON" or "half a MIL"? Heh heh, half a micron isn`t much even by my standards! Half a micron is nudging up against Ford`s recommendation, but they`re talking oe paint and repaints often have thicker clear (well, maybe..hopefully).

Mi Hermano, El Accumulador,

I only measure in Microns, especially on Factory Paint - I want to know the least amount of clear coat removed rather than a bigger amount of clear coat removed when measuring in Mils..
And I don`t like to do the math each time - 1 Mil = 25.4 Microns, so I always measure in Microns..

Yes, I try to keep corrections to the absolute bare minimum removed, on Factory Paint again (to protect the integrity of the paintwork and my reputation), based on the Client`s wishes and amount paid for this work..

For Repaints, in my experiences, before and after acquiring a Total Thickness Meter, there is always a lot of something on that panel, etc...
Now, of course, I don`t know if its a lot of bondo/filler, extra Primer and then perhaps a Sealer over that, and Then the Color and Clearcoat, but there is always a thicker layer of all those things there..

And having painted before, I always, and all the Painters I knew always, put a lot of paint and thinned down paint and clearcoat on the panel/s so that there would never be a problem from the wet color sanding to the compounding stages..
Dan F

[Accumulator]

Stokdgs- OK, thanks for explaining. I too do my measuring in microns, but limiting the removal to 0.5 still got my attention! Guess the seemingly aggressive correction you Pros often do made that surprising to me. You know...some here seem to hammer on the clear, yielding those dramatic Before/After shots that *I* often see as "now-fragile, overthinned clear"

[Mike lambert]

Using the right product and technique does not require you to “hammer” on the clear. I can assure you that when a car leaves my shop the clear is not in “fragile “ condition.

[Accumulator]

Mike Lambert- Sorry if I came across as lumping all Pros into the same basket. It wasn`t all that long ago that multi-mil-depth marring was leveled here on a regular basis and most just oohed-and-ahhed about it. When something would *obviously* catch a nail/etc. and it gets "fixed" via abrasion, I think "uh-oh" no matter how nice things look (especially on the internet ). A few years ago Ron Ketcham and I were about the only guys here ranting about clearcoat thickness and we came across like, uhm....Chicken Little...to most people.

NOW though, it appears that more folks are giving it some consideration, so again, sorry if I over-generalized.

[Mike lambert]

No offense taken at all! Happy new year!

[GearHead_1]

....You know...everybody here seems to hammer on the clear all the time...

Like Mike, I do not fit into that “everybody” category, never have and I’m not even a Pro.

[Accumulator]

Eh, I oughta edit that...Done.

[Stokdgs]

Stokdgs- OK, thanks for explaining. I too do my measuring in microns, but limiting the removal to 0.5 still got my attention! Guess the seemingly aggressive correction you Pros often do made that surprising to me. You know...everybody here seems to hammer on the clear all the time, yielding those dramatic Before/After shots that *I* often see as "now-fragile, overthinned clear"

Accumulator --

I said I like to stop at 0.5 micron; and if the clarity and gloss level is at what is being paid for, within the limits I set for the amount of overall thickness of the paint there, and I can see that this level of correction will "Match" across the entire vehicle, I often stop there and the Client has much more paint left for the on-going relationship we are going to have..

And I like that next time I see it, I know what I did to it, and it is Always - in much better condition than the very first time I took all the awful stuff out of the paintwork..

Regarding people "seem to hammer on the clear all the time, yielding those dramatic Before/After shots", part of my job description is to bring the paintwork back to clarity and gloss that is very noticeable, yet keeping in mind that this is a a long-term project that goes years and I have to take care of number-1, the Client first...

Yes, on some vehicles, I recall a couple of 2002 BMW M5`s in Jet Black that were so neglected, the paint was all scratched up, hazed, dulled, so badly; the vehicles looked a sad shade of flat-gray when they came into the Shop..

I had permission to bring them back to the beautiful color they left Germany with, and it took a little aggressive compounding to get the paint back to normal, and then it was just using finer polishes to get the clarity and gloss really sharp.. They looked like rolling jet black mirrors when they left.. All light just got sucked up into the paintwork, they were so fine ! And since this was the FIRST time they had ever been corrected by anyone, I had plenty of paint to work with..

I try to use as much as possible something that will yield correction and great clarity and gloss in 1-2 steps, and that also helps save the paintwork from diminishing too fast..

The days of using multiple compounds, then multiple polishes should be long gone by now.. It all comes down to the product and a pad that is capable of correcting AND finishing down really good.. Then, it is possible to help save as much paintwork for future long term clean ups, etc...

Perhaps this is easier for me to say and do because I only use Rotary Power ?

I have studied over decades what people use to "Polish" things - all things - jewelry, metal, plastic, stone, glass, paint, gelcoat, everything, and it is always a pad with media on it connected to a direct drive motor..
Dan F

[Accumulator]

Stokdgs- Yeah, you and I are on the same page.

AND...[INSERT my respect for you Rotary-Meisters and anybody who deals with Jet Black]

One thing I *will* disagree with ya on though...(and hey, I`m just jawin`)...

...what people use to "Polish" things - all things - jewelry, metal, plastic, stone, glass, paint, gelcoat, everything, and it is always a pad with media on it connected to a direct drive motor..

for a long, LONG, time people polished hard stuff (like marble) BY HAND. When I started correcting autopaint I gained a whole new level of respect for the sculptors/metal workers/other artisans who did such work all those ages ago. You know, like...Michelangelo thinking "..here`s a block of marble, I`ll turn it into `David`, smooth as glass..."