Foaming, is it just all bubbles?

[Dan]

Off topic or on, but is anyone here using any commercial grade foam/soap in your PW that is foam/touchless routine .....

Granted the touchless bays are just that, acid followed by akaline, since this is par for the course on this thread, is anyone using any ~strong~ stuff to employ a touchless routine.

Ahem, cough, cough - jack frost is right around the corner.

You know, I`d love to use some sort of acid-base combo for winter time washing. Man if someone could invent an LSP that really sheets and maybe a rinse agent that helps, it would be perfect, except for one fact. That acid-base combo is hell on trim. Most paint seems to do fine, but man, I`ve seen 3-4 year old cars that go through touchless washes frequently, they look like they are 10 years old if you look at all the plastic and especially rubber. You can polish out marring from sloppy winter washing techniques, but replacing trim...ain`t easy.

[Dellinger]

Not really replying to any previous posts... but I have never understood why the manufacturers of detailing products have never marketed a strong prep soap/ solution to the custom/ technical detailing market. I know that there has to be some sort of product that could be slightly tweaked from the car wash products that most manufacturers offer to automated / touchless washes / wash stalls... or even a product from the truck washing market. Seems like this would be low hanging fruit?

From my own experience, an elevated pH wash is not as good as a low pH wash. I have seen more chemical staining on clear from an elevated pH vs. a low pH... so I find it interesting folks will be quick to add APC to a wash solution or spray a diluted APC on paint instead of an acid. Could be a health aspect I guess.

Talking real life... I use some sort of low pH chemical (4- 5 range) on every prep prior to whatever level of machine polishing I am going to perform. It is invaluable around emblems, chrome grilles, etc... Great for addressing water spots too.

Which all my blabbering really comes back to the intentions of the post- Is foaming all bubbles? Well, IMO, that is all it is when using pH neutral, foam solution. If it`s just light dust in the summer months... then a pressure rinse should knock that off. If it`s in the dead of winter with road spray covering the sides of the vehicle... pH neutral foam isn`t doing anything. As someone said... you gotta physically touch the paint with media to get that stuff off. Even my 210-degree hot water pressure washer doesn`t remove winter road spray by its lonesome.

[Accumulator]

Dellinger- It`s not the low-ph you`re after (quite the opposite), but what about AutoInt/ValuGard`s "A"?

[Dellinger]

You know, I`d love to use some sort of acid-base combo for winter time washing. Man if someone could invent an LSP that really sheets and maybe a rinse agent that helps, it would be perfect, except for one fact. That acid-base combo is hell on trim. Most paint seems to do fine, but man, I`ve seen 3-4 year old cars that go through touchless washes frequently, they look like they are 10 years old if you look at all the plastic and especially rubber. You can polish out marring from sloppy winter washing techniques, but replacing trim...ain`t easy.

I tend to believe that degraded trim components you are talking about are shabby in their appearance because the owners who frequent touchless/ automated washes are hardly ever hand washing their vehicles. If you don`t ever touch the vehicle to clean it... things are going to bond to any surface. So I would NOT attribute their degradation to the low-pH wash solution solely. Could it be a factor... sure. And that could come from repeated and frequent exposure to low/ high pH chemicals. Next time, look at the emblems. If there is bonded road grime around them AND the trim is looking beat... rest assured it`s not just chemical damage but a lack of actual hand washing. Don`t get me wrong... not advocating a low-pH wash every time the vehicle needs a wash BUT when it comes to getting tight areas of emblems and grilles clean (without removing them and reapplying)... a low pH chemical definitely has it`s place on an infrequent basis.

[Dellinger]

Dellinger- It`s not the low-ph you`re after (quite the opposite), but what about AutoInt/ValuGard`s "A"?

Unsure of what you mean by - `It`s not the low-ph you`re after`?

If Valuard wasn`t drunk on their shipping costs... I might entertain it. Actually had the same conversation with a fellow detailer in my area of the world. We agreed that we could probably replicate, to a degree, the intentions of the `ABC` system with the chemicals we have on hand. Blasphemy? Probably... but I am NOT paying $45 for shipping.

[mobiledynamics]

Wish want and do are 3 seperate things I suppose Dan....

I always wish to have a strong solution, strong enough to do it all (aka, remove film-touchless). Then it get`s warmer and I forget about it. Then when the jackets come out and I know what`s around the corner, I get into frenzy mode seeing if there`s anything new over the ~pond~ if you wanna call it, that does just that. Well, there`s always other issues like importing, EPA/VOC, etc, etc..

In all fairness, I`m a 48 month leaser. Maybe less sometimes...if I swap. So I may not as adverse or not to the residual effects...

I`ve tested with APC at some mild solutions last year. Did not do much as when I started, it was sorta late in the winter season. The dedicated ~traffic film~ products, I suspect the are much much stronger in concentration...than even APC at full strength

[DetailZeus]

Not really replying to any previous posts... but I have never understood why the manufacturers of detailing products have never marketed a strong prep soap/ solution to the custom/ technical detailing market. I know that there has to be some sort of product that could be slightly tweaked from the car wash products that most manufacturers offer to automated / touchless washes / wash stalls... or even a product from the truck washing market. Seems like this would be low hanging fruit?

From my own experience, an elevated pH wash is not as good as a low pH wash. I have seen more chemical staining on clear from an elevated pH vs. a low pH... so I find it interesting folks will be quick to add APC to a wash solution or spray a diluted APC on paint instead of an acid. Could be a health aspect I guess.

Talking real life... I use some sort of low pH chemical (4- 5 range) on every prep prior to whatever level of machine polishing I am going to perform. It is invaluable around emblems, chrome grilles, etc... Great for addressing water spots too.

Which all my blabbering really comes back to the intentions of the post- Is foaming all bubbles? Well, IMO, that is all it is when using pH neutral, foam solution. If it`s just light dust in the summer months... then a pressure rinse should knock that off. If it`s in the dead of winter with road spray covering the sides of the vehicle... pH neutral foam isn`t doing anything. As someone said... you gotta physically touch the paint with media to get that stuff off. Even my 210-degree hot water pressure washer doesn`t remove winter road spray by its lonesome.

I don`t think it`s the high pH alone that`s a problem, I think it`s when caustics are used to create the high pH. Caustics are cheap, and automated touchless car washes are all about $$$. You can still get higher pH products without their use. I basically just look for something that says "paint safe" on the bottle or doesn`t have caustics in the sds. Concentration is a huge factor too. I don`t understand enough chemistry to go further than that.

Totally agree on following up with a hand wash. I never intended for the prefoam/prewash to replace the 2 buckets. IMO regular use of something like a super strong truckwash is only approach for beaters, or wait for it...trucks.

[Dellinger]

I don`t think it`s the high pH alone that`s a problem, I think it`s when caustics are used to create the high pH. Caustics are cheap, and automated touchless car washes are all about $$$. You can still get higher pH products without their use. I basically just look for something that says "paint safe" on the bottle or doesn`t have caustics in the sds. Concentration is a huge factor too. I don`t understand enough chemistry to go further than that.

Totally agree on following up with a hand wash. I never intended for the prefoam/prewash to replace the 2 buckets. IMO regular use of something like a super strong truckwash is only approach for beaters, or wait for it...trucks.

That`s a fair point. I tend to always assume the folks posting here are using a *newer* APC and not one developed 10+ years ago... concerning caustics APCs. Although I will add even one`s that are said to be safe for exterior paint @ certain dilution ratios are not being entirely truthful. I have tested quite a few and you will still find staining at their recommended dilutions (for painted surfaces)... even those from 1Z/ Nextzett.

Interestingly enough, Feynlab just released a product called Pure Rinseless wash and according to the rep I spoke with, the pH level is supposed to be a little above/ or at 2 and I believe it is a RTU product. Will be trying that out next week or so and testing it in various fashions. Should be interesting.

[Accumulator]

Unsure of what you mean by - `It`s not the low-ph you`re after`?

You`re after something *acidic*, right? The "A" is alkaline.

If Valuard wasn`t drunk on their shipping costs... I might entertain it.... but I am NOT paying $45 for shipping.[/QUOTE]

OK, makes sense Wonder if Chrysler/Ford/others still stock it under one of their partnumbers? Dunno about any markups, but you could presumably just buy it at the Parts Counter with no shipping costs (I`d *assume*).

[purebrilliance]

This is an interesting topic. I saw a video from Optimum using power clean in their foam cannon and seemed to work well. Has anyone tried this?

[twtbuda]

FOAM IS JUST AIR

Fellas, automatic car washes have been using foamers for more than 30 years. Hate to tell you but the foam is nothing but a bit of shampoo with a lot of air.
As the original poster stated you have to knock off the heavy dirt with a pressure washer first.
The foam is nothing more than for customer appeal, if your customers even see how you wash the vehicle.
Someone said the foam provided lubrication, but not really that much.
The lubrication comes not from the foam but from the water on the wash mitt or the hose you might put on the car.
A lot of water is the key and friction, not foam.
Do not allow yourself to be deluded into thinking the foam is saving the finish of the car it is not, I am sorry to say.
It is a lot of water and a perfectly clean wash mitt.
But how can you have a perfectly clean wash mitt if, the second it touches the girt on the car it become imbedded with grit. Grit to small to move out even in a washing machine? Someone tell me that?
Not trying to be a contrarian, but facts are facts, like them or not.

Regards
TWT

[GearHead_1]

FOAM IS JUST AIR...


Not trying to be a contrarian, but facts are facts, like them or not.

Love it when someone comes to the party with FACTS. Now just waiting to see them.

[mobiledynamics]

ABC.....blast from a past. Me wonders how `Ron is doing....

It`s been quite awhile since I`ve used it....as I`m in the zone of new car prep, polish, coat and then 36-48 months later, rinse and repeat. The only other thing in the mix, is the varied spot polishing depending on which @#$ decides to rub the panel in the parking lot.

[Accumulator]

...But how can you have a perfectly clean wash mitt if, the second it touches the girt on the car it become imbedded with grit. Grit to small to move out even in a washing machine? Someone tell me that?
Not trying to be a contrarian, but facts are facts, like them or not.

twtbuda- Welcome to Autopia!

IMO all that really matters with this stuff is whether a person`s vehicle stays the way they want it with the approach they`re using. For *me* that means remaining basically marring-free for many years (between corrections) despite said vehicles getting utterly filthy between washes. My view is that what you mentioned regarding the nearly immediate soiling of the wash medium is indeed critical and that`s why I use the foamgun to facilitate a "dislodge and flush" approach via constant flushing and lubrication.

Heh heh, I simply can`t figure out how some people apparently (oh man, that sounds sorta snarky...adding that "apparently"...but unless I`ve lit a vehicle up in a dark room with a SunGun how can I really *KNOW* its condition?) keep their vehicles marring-free using the approaches they do. If I do that stuff I cause marring. But that`s just me...

[Accumulator]

ABC.....blast from a past. Me wonders how `Ron is doing....

Last time he emailed me he was doing fine.

It`s been quite awhile since I`ve used it....as I`m in the zone of new car prep, polish, coat and then 36-48 months later, rinse and repeat. The only other thing in the mix, is the varied spot polishing depending on which @#$ decides to rub the panel in the parking lot.

Yeah, same here. Despite my frequent advocacy of the stuff, I don`t really need it any more...and that marring from the carelessness of others is the big reason why I have to spot-correct too. Sigh...cost of using `em like real vehicles.