Water stains, again

**imported_RedlineIRL** · 07-15-2011, 11:26 PM

Ok, get ready for a long post here. I`m getting really frustrated with a problem I am having with water stains and hope to get some anwsers, so I don`t want to leave out any of the details.

A few weeks ago I had what many in the detailing world call type ii water stains on my hood. I tried all the least agressive methods first, vinegar, clay, paint cleaner polish, and had to resort to using the PC 7424 with the following

5.5 LC CCS orange pads w/ Danase Swirl Abolisher II (3 to 4 passes on speed 6)

6.5 LC CCS white pads w/ Danase Swirl Abolisher I

I did multiple, literally 10 or more, IPA wipedowns in a few different 1`x1` sections to make sure everything was out before finishing off with the SA I. All looked good so I proceeded with the SA I to get out the polishing marks left from SA II. Then I topped it all off with Poorboys Carnuba Blue Non Abrasive polish, and the put on a layer of Collinite 845 mixed with Polycharger CH2.

At the moment, my car gets driven everyday during the week and sits outside 24/7. So about a week and a half goes by, and driving in some rain during one of the days, still nothing that can be seen on the hood. Then the other day a pop up 10 minute long thunderstorm decides to happen, then afterwards the sun comes out in full force back in the 90 degree blazing heat. I tried to get as much of the water of the car as I could before it dried. Once I got home, I washed the hood and roof off with ONR, only to see water stains on my hood again while nothing was left behind at all on the roof.

I know for a fact that this isn`t the prevous stains just reappearing, since these stains are in the same areas and shape on the hood where you could see where the water had dried on. I also know that this wasn`t due to any kind of acid rain or industrial fallout, since the only stains I got were on the hood, nowhere else on the car. I thought that Collinite 845 was supposed to be one of the better protecting waxes out there, seems its doing more harm than good for me. I am getting sick and tired of fighting what seems to be a losing battle here, so I could really use some help. My car is a brght red Saturn Ion with the typical newer GM paint which seems easy to scratch yet hard to correct.

As thin as I tried to put the Polycharged 845 on by hand, it still left a streaky haze after a few hours after applying it. Could this haze acted as a magnifying glass on the hood along with the already tall beading that Collinite 845 creates, and caused them to stain into the surface?

Prior to this, I have only polished the hood of my car using the same polishes with 6.5 pads 2 other times in a 5 year period. Do you all think that using this combination of polish and pads for a 4th time total, is running the risk of making the finish really thin?

Also, if I don`t polish these out as soon as I can, will the heat and other outdoor exposure make them harder to remove?

Is there a wax or sealant out there that can help me with this? At this point I really don`t want to wax any horizontal surface of my car until I can figure out why this is happening. I want to avoid any further machine polishing after this for a long time. I guess I need something that doesn`t bead up tall or bead much at all. I don`t care about long term durability or the glossiest looks. Any suggestions?

I apologize about the long post and all the questions, but I just want to figure this out

**AeroCleanse** · 07-16-2011, 11:46 AM

I would switch to a paint coating like Optimum Opti-Coat 2.0

**Dan** · 07-16-2011, 12:40 PM

It might be time to try a different LSP. There might be some reaction going on with 845 and whatever is in your water. Personally, I haven`t had any issues in a while with rainwater and water spots. Sprinkler water on the other hand, yes. I`d split your hood in 3 and use 845, a good sealant like Optiseal/Zaino/FK and then a pure carnauba. The beauty of a non-hybrid carnauba is that when it wears off, it doesn`t bead anymore. Some sealants continue to bead long after they have stopped protecting. The trouble these days is, its hard finding a pure carnauba wax. Everything OTC (including 845) is a hybrid.

**Bill D** · 07-16-2011, 12:48 PM

It sounds to me that there`s a lot of contamination in the environment where you live and the fallout comes in the rain and deposits on your car. Only things I can think of are regularly claying, polishing as needed, and experimenting until you find a LSP that retards the staining well. I`d recommend having an anti contamination wash system like FK`s or Valugard ABC and maybe using it a few times a year before the ritual of inspecting and doing any correction and then reapplying the LSP.

**imported_RedlineIRL** · 07-16-2011, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by yakky

It might be time to try a different LSP. There might be some reaction going on with 845 and whatever is in your water. Personally, I haven`t had any issues in a while with rainwater and water spots. Sprinkler water on the other hand, yes. I`d split your hood in 3 and use 845, a good sealant like Optiseal/Zaino/FK and then a pure carnauba. The beauty of a non-hybrid carnauba is that when it wears off, it doesn`t bead anymore. Some sealants continue to bead long after they have stopped protecting. The trouble these days is, its hard finding a pure carnauba wax. Everything OTC (including 845) is a hybrid.

Trust me, I am done with Collinite 845 at this point, same goes with Polycharger. 1st time may have been some coincidence, a second time, I don`t think so. I am thinking it is related to one or the other, or the combination of both. I may just go back to Poorboys EX, I never had a problem at all with it

Originally Posted by Bill D

It sounds to me that there`s a lot of contamination in the environment where you live and the fallout comes in the rain and deposits on your car. Only things I can think of are regularly claying, polishing as needed, and experimenting until you find a LSP that retards the staining well. I`d recommend having an anti contamination wash system like FK`s or Valugard ABC and maybe using it a few times a year before the ritual of inspecting and doing any correction and then reapplying the LSP.

I though it could be related to contamination or fallout too, but if that was the case there`d be etchngs on the roof and trunk also, not just the hood only. I have never had this problem prior with this car or any other that I can recall, so I don`t think contaminated water is really the problem.

Is it a possibility that the taller beading from 845, left over haze, and mid 90 degree heat cause this to really amplify the process?

**Bill D** · 07-16-2011, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by RedlineIRL

Is it a possibility that the taller beading from 845, left over haze, and mid 90 degree heat cause this to really amplify the process?

It could well be. I remember a discussion a while back about how sometimes beads could act magnifiers, allowing deposits to quickly dry onto the finish. If that indeed can happen and is so, perhaps this is an example of it?

I`d look into one of those decontamination wash systems, the theory being they can open the pores of the paint and flush out whatever contaminants are stuck in it. Beyond that, and a product like an AIO, I`d hate to see sanding as the solution. In this case,that extreme just doesn`t seem appropriate. It`s got to be a matter of figuring out what chemical process can remove the spots.

**Dan** · 07-16-2011, 06:25 PM

Well, its certainly not just you, I tested M21, Z2, KSG and 845IW against hard water spotting. 845 was the absolute worst.

**imported_RedlineIRL** · 07-16-2011, 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by yakky

Well, its certainly not just you, I tested M21, Z2, KSG and 845IW against hard water spotting. 845 was the absolute worst.

Did you happen to post up a thread duriung your testing? I`d be interested in reading that. Which faired best for you?

I am really starting to think that this is attributed to 845, I don`t know what else it could be. Ever since I have used 845, I have noticed that it attacts dirts and dust rather quickly compared to other LSPs I have used prior, but I kept using it since etching I never proved to be a problem in the past and the durability could go 5 months easily. Combining it with Polycharger probably wasn`t a good idea either, since the Polycharger makes it bead even taller in my experience. So with a combination of the dirt, tall beading, a darker vehicle, and heat, it seems like that`s the problem here. I pisses me off knowing that relatives and other people I know are lucky to wax their car once a year with some OTC wax and don`t have problems with water marks, yet I bust my butt on mine trying to maintain it as Autopian as I can and still end up with these marks. Does this seem like this could be the reason for this to you all with 845, or is my logic of on this one?

I`d love to be able to use something like Opticoat 2.0 or CQuartz, but I need a solution that works well kinda soon. Eventually I want to go this route, but at the moment I don`t really have the time to polish the entire car to the level I want and be able to carefully apply the Opticoat. Is there anything else out there that sheets water more than actually beading it in a liquid wax or sealant form?

**Dan** · 07-17-2011, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by RedlineIRL

Did you happen to post up a thread duriung your testing? I`d be interested in reading that. Which faired best for you?

No, I meant to, and still should. It was an indoor test, I had a painted piece of metal that I polished then applied the various LSPs. I sprayed hard tap water and let it dry several times. What is interesting is that my test did not involve sun at all.

**imported_RedlineIRL** · 07-17-2011, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by yakky

No, I meant to, and still should. It was an indoor test, I had a painted piece of metal that I polished then applied the various LSPs. I sprayed hard tap water and let it dry several times. What is interesting is that my test did not involve sun at all.

Interesting. This whole experience has really turned off from using 845 ever again. Now its time to find a new LSP

I was wondering, can water stains get forced in deeper by the heat and sun? Or does it take water and heat exposure to cause reactivation if any mineral deposits are left behind? I already cleaned the hood off and got all the dirt off using ONR, so hopefully all surface contaminants are gone. I won`t have a chance to properly wash and polish again until this coming up weekend, so this is really bumming me out big time:sadpace: There`s no rain being called for this week, just mid to high 90 degree temperatures

**Dan** · 07-17-2011, 03:12 PM

Heat cycles absolutely force deposits deeper into the paint. Paint pores expand and contract, and gravity does the rest. Autoglym`s bird poo studies attributed most damage to that fact.

**SpoolinNoMore** · 07-18-2011, 11:50 PM

I`ve gone through correcting *heavy* water spotting on my Acura and after keeping a good LSP on it with sealant it has never come back. Try Meg`s Ultimate Liquid Wax or HD POXY, POXY being the favorable one, but Meg`s is available OTC.

**imported_RedlineIRL** · 07-20-2011, 12:30 AM

Originally Posted by SpoolinNoMore

I`ve gone through correcting *heavy* water spotting on my Acura and after keeping a good LSP on it with sealant it has never come back. Try Meg`s Ultimate Liquid Wax or HD POXY, POXY being the favorable one, but Meg`s is available OTC.

I will take a look at those for my next LSP. What did you use as far as correcting goes?

**CrispyGP2001** · 08-19-2015, 09:20 PM

The problem is the clear coat. There is a Dupont article on paint defects and it covers these as improper application of the clear coat. It also says to polish to remove or sand and repaint. I have done my rear bumper which has this same problem 2 times so far by polishing. If a 3rd appearance happens I`m going to repaint.

Here is the Dupont Desciption

Water Spotting
Description
General dulling of gloss in spots or masses of spots.
Origin and Potential Causes:
• Washing finish in bright sunlight.
• Droplets of water evaporating on finish which is not sufficiently
cured due to:
• Excessive film thickness, drying time too short
• Failure of cross linking due to moisture contamination
• Unsuitable thinner
Prevention Techniques:
• Do not apply water to fresh paint job and try to keep newlyfinished
car out of rain.
• Allow sufficient drying time before delivering car to customer.
• Wash car in shade and wipe completely dry.
• Follow technical recommendations.
• Ensure lids are tightly replaced after using hardeners.
Remedy
• Remove marks by compounding or polishing.
• In severe cases, sand affected areas, isolate and refinish.

**RPPM** · 08-19-2015, 10:32 PM

I had this same issue on a repainted hood. All the Collinites (476, 845, 915) would water spot terribly. I had the same issue with Meg`s Ultimate wax both paste and liquid. The best sealant I have found so far to prevent this is Sonax Polymer Net Shield. No baking of water spots into the soft aftermarket painted clear coat. I would recommend it.