The dreaded black paint vs. the easy white paint..

[C. Charles Hahn]

True indeed. The first question I always ask anyone who approaches me for a detail is,"

How far do you want to go?" and when I explain what I mean by that, sometimes I get some interesting looks in response. Generally the rarer and higher end car owners are receptive to the "Autopian standard" which I enjoy doing when it`s called upon.

I take a similar approach, but I`ve started going a slightly different direction and first asking people "What do you want done, and what`s your budget?"



By asking this and knowing the hourly rate I shoot for, I know about how much work I can deliver within their budget. If it allows for the job to be completed to their stated level of satisfaction, great.... otherwise I have to sell them on raising their budget OR adjust their expectations to fit with what they can afford (within reason, of course).

[Scottwax]

I take a similar approach, but I`ve started going a slightly different direction and first asking people "What do you want done, and what`s your budget?"

I also ask them how they take care of their car currently and how much time a week they are willing to put in to it each week to maintain it. No sense selling a correction to someone unwilling to keep it looking good. You`ll end up taking the blame if the car looks like crap in a month.

[David Fermani]

Paint is paint, defects are defects.



I don`t and never have understood how people say "on light paint I can go straight to lsp when I use product x"...



If you can do it on light paint, why not on dark paint? The same defects will still be present.

Ok, I`m going to go against the grain a little and play devils advocate here....(not singling Jason out btw either)





Paint is paint(especially clearcoat), but defects/micromarring isn`t the same if it is at level to where you can`t even distinguish them with a naked eye. Were talking the difference of gloss on a yellowish clear surface thinner than a sheet a paper. What is viewable to the naked eye is 100% contingent on the color of the base it’s refracting off of. Darker colors shadow and display less clarity then lighter ones therefore slight gloss variances cannot be detected most times. To say you need to finish out every paint to the Nth degree of perfection (to me) isn’t realistic. I`ve polished light colored cars at times(with M105 via DA specifically) where going to a "finishing" polish didn`t bump up the gloss one bit unless you were to measure it with a gloss meter. OTOH, if I were looking at this same circumstance with a darker color I’m certain this wouldn’t be the case.

[Deep Gloss Auto Salon]

Ok, I`m going to go against the grain a little and play devils advocate here....(not singling Jason out btw either)





Paint is paint(especially clearcoat), but defects/micromarring isn`t the same if it is at level to where you can`t even distinguish them with a naked eye. Were talking the difference of gloss on a yellowish clear surface thinner than a sheet a paper. What is viewable to the naked eye is 100% contingent on the color of the base it’s refracting off of. Darker colors shadow and display less clarity then lighter ones therefore slight gloss variances cannot be detected most times. To say you need to finish out every paint to the Nth degree of perfection (to me) isn’t realistic. I`ve polished light colored cars at times(with M105 via DA specifically) where going to a "finishing" polish didn`t bump up the gloss one bit unless you were to measure it with a gloss meter. OTOH, if I were looking at this same circumstance with a darker color I’m certain this wouldn’t be the case.

I only inspect for defects with the naked eye, I do not use a loom or any magnification device so, if I can see them with my naked eye under various light sources I have at my disposal, I do not consider the paint 100% corrected. If I can`t see defects with my naked eye I consider it 100% corrected.

[Deep Gloss Auto Salon]

I also ask them how they take care of their car currently and how much time a week they are willing to put in to it each week to maintain it. No sense selling a correction to someone unwilling to keep it looking good. You`ll end up taking the blame if the car looks like crap in a month.

Every customer that pays for correction gets a dissertation by me explaining what will be needed to maintain the paint – I tell them, why spend the money if you can’t maintain it.



I have yet to have a customer that came to me asking for correction decline after my very thorough and honest explanation on how it is not for every person/car.



I explain:

• The cost

• The amount of work (time) it takes to maintain

• The investment ($) it takes in proper tools & chemicals to maintain

• That clear coat is a non replenishable source and that we are removing CC and once it’s gone, it’s gone.



If after all this, the prospect still wants correction, they get what they want and I feel I did my part to properly educate them so that if they come back with a swirled up mess I know I did all I can to make sure they were in the “know�

[David Fermani]

I only inspect for defects with the naked eye, I do not use a loom or any magnification device so, if I can see them with my naked eye under various light sources I have at my disposal, I do not consider the paint 100% corrected. If I can`t see defects with my naked eye I consider it 100% corrected.

Gotcha, but some could argue at the same time that if the paint could be improved by doing extra final polishing step(s) (even if you can see it) you`re not correcting the paint to its fullest until they are completed. Technically speaking of course. No doubt that going through extra steps only adds to the law of deminishing returns that can`t even be measured in some cases. Boils down to knowing your customer and saying enough is enough based on non-OCD Autopian methodology. :wink1:

[Deep Gloss Auto Salon]

Gotcha, but some could argue at the same time that if the paint could be improved by doing extra final polishing step(s) (even if you can see it) you`re not correcting the paint to its fullest until they are completed. Technically speaking of course. No doubt that going through extra steps only adds to the law of deminishing returns that can`t even be measured in some cases. Boils down to knowing your customer and saying enough is enough based on non-OCD Autopian methodology. :wink1:

I agree 100%, knowing your customer is key.



I also do not advocate full correction if the customer cannot maintain it but, at the end of the day they get what they want and al I can do is educate them. Flip side of that is I would not grind at the paint of the thickness readings were low.



To your point, I do think it is amusing when I see individuals using magnification devices to remove what cannot be seen with the naked eye.

[Accumulator]

Not that I`m saying it oughta be done...but I want to add another $0.02 about the idea of polishing "beyond what you can discern with the naked eye". Heh heh, whenever this comes up it can sound soooo goofy, and elicit all kinds of "I don`t care if I can`t see it" type comments that just might miss the point. That`s if there *is* a point because I`m the last guy to advocate doing something that nobody appreciates anyhow. But here`s what I`m driving at-



Take two white cars (or silver ones...like two silver S8`s since that`s how I`ve demonstrated this). Correct one to "perfectly fine to the naked eye" level. It`ll look fine, no question about it. But then take the second one beyond that with a little burnishing/"jeweling". In decent lighting, the difference will be obvious, even to "normal people". BTDT and while nobody else thought it was worth doing, people *did* see the difference.



Want to be the guy with the "naked eye" car...parked next to the guy whose paint got burnished? That`s where individual preference comes in. Hey, if you don`t care that`s fine with me, and as David Fermani has pointed out, *my* Audis could currently benefit from a polishing to take them beyond their "OK to the naked eye" level. And if I were paying sombody to do it, I`d want that extra 1%. But I don`t want it badly enough to polish them myself in the forseeable future :grinno:

[Deep Gloss Auto Salon]

Not that I`m saying it oughta be done...but I want to add another $0.02 about the idea of polishing "beyond what you can discern with the naked eye". Heh heh, whenever this comes up it can sound soooo goofy, and elicit all kinds of "I don`t care if I can`t see it" type comments that just might miss the point. That`s if there *is* a point because I`m the last guy to advocate doing something that nobody appreciates anyhow. But here`s what I`m driving at-



Take two white cars (or silver ones...like two silver S8`s since that`s how I`ve demonstrated this). Correct one to "perfectly fine to the naked eye" level. It`ll look fine, no question about it. But then take the second one beyond that with a little burnishing/"jeweling". In decent lighting, the difference will be obvious, even to "normal people". BTDT and while nobody else thought it was worth doing, people *did* see the difference.



Want to be the guy with the "naked eye" car...parked next to the guy whose paint got burnished? That`s where individual preference comes in. Hey, if you don`t care that`s fine with me, and as David Fermani has pointed out, *my* Audis could currently benefit from a polishing to take them beyond their "OK to the naked eye" level. And if I were paying sombody to do it, I`d want that extra 1%. But I don`t want it badly enough to polish them myself in the forseeable future :grinno:

And this is a great point and why when polishing to perfection one should always do a test spot to see if going to the "next level" will yield noticeable returns... If so, proceed.

[amcdonal86]

Bwahaha, I just did a quick wash and wax of my white Honda Insight (2 months old, never washed, except once I took it through a machine wash). I didn`t bother to do a polishing or clay step in between because I really don`t care about that car (just wanted the bare minimum of protection so that I don`t get dinged when it`s time to turn it in at the end of the lease).



Looks just as good to me (and I assume the average person) as my black 2006 Jaguar XJ, other than the fact that my Insight is probably the ugliest car on earth.



As for what Accumulator said:



"Take two white cars (or silver ones...like two silver S8`s since that`s how I`ve demonstrated this). Correct one to "perfectly fine to the naked eye" level. It`ll look fine, no question about it. But then take the second one beyond that with a little burnishing/"jeweling". In decent lighting, the difference will be obvious, even to "normal people". BTDT and while nobody else thought it was worth doing, people *did* see the difference."



I just don`t buy it. Maybe if you put the cars side by side, somebody would notice the difference, but if you have one group of people look at car A and another group of people look at car B and judge how they look without seeing the other car, I bet their wouldn`t be any statistical difference in the results! Only true car detailing nuts can tell the difference on a white car, at least from a few feet + away!

[imported_Picus]

^^ I respectfully disagree. I tend not to give much credit to the average passer by when it comes to niche level car detailing, but I`m fairly confident most people would see a difference, even if they couldn`t explain what the difference was.



...Of course I agree entirely that working within the constraints of a customers budget/expectations is key... but that`s kind of a different conversation.

[Accumulator]

As for what Accumulator said:



"Take two white cars (or silver ones...like two silver S8`s since that`s how I`ve demonstrated this). Correct one to "perfectly fine to the naked eye" level. It`ll look fine, no question about it. But then take the second one beyond that with a little burnishing/"jeweling". In decent lighting, the difference will be obvious, even to "normal people". BTDT and while nobody else thought it was worth doing, people *did* see the difference."



I just don`t buy it. Maybe if you put the cars side by side, somebody would notice the difference...

The two identical silver S8s *were* side-by-side. And you`d have to have been blind to miss the diff It wasn`t subtle...my wife was asking "how would you fix that?!?" Re the other guy`s (professionally detailed) car.



FWIW, my wife and I have our two identical silver D2-series Audis parked side-by-side all the time, and I bet *you* would see the diffs between them if you checked them out in person. IRL, some car nuts do notice the diffs and can articulate them too, but you`re right, normal people think they look the same.

...but if you have one group of people look at car A and another group of people look at car B and judge how they look without seeing the other car, I bet their wouldn`t be any statistical difference in the results! Only true car detailing nuts can tell the difference on a white car, at least from a few feet + away!

While some of those nuts (myself included) really can do that sort of comparison, when it comes to remotely normal people in real world situations, hey.... I agree with you completely. I consider my white Crown Vic to be a real POS, yet people are always complimenting it and I`m not the least bit interested in making it look any better; it`s plenty good enough. Some Autopian would find all sorts of things that "need improving" but I couldn`t care less :grinno: But I tell ya.... I`d sure hate to park it next to an identical one that`d been *really* Autopianized

[gigondaz]

There are much more awesomely impressive black cars around vs whites and silvers.





For me, it`s much more difficult to impress the owner of a white or light coloured car.

For such colours, I try to aim for big budget jobs with lots of time given to me so that I can do some very mild sanding (if necessary), extensive compounding and loads of fine burnishing, coupled to a few rounds of synthetic sealants or even coatings.



As a detailer, I intentionally bought a silver car and got it extensively prepped and detailed to show my customers what is possible with a silver car.



Note:

When I demo any silver or light coloured cars, I love doing it in a dim indoor environment as it helps to highlight how reflective white, silver and light colours can be.

[amcdonal86]

This is true, white and silver are much more reflective in lower light conditions.

[C. Charles Hahn]

Note:

When I demo any silver or light coloured cars, I love doing it in a dim indoor environment as it helps to highlight how reflective white, silver and light colours can be.

Indeed! Case in point: