I am thinking of buying Zymol Vintage Glaze

**imported_kenny1775** · 10-06-2008, 09:10 PM

Dude, all you have to ask yourself is one question......

How many times do you live????

**Todd@RUPES** · 10-06-2008, 10:18 PM

Most car waxes are fairly similar in make-up...

I wonder what type of "special" ingedients make Vintage the or worth 100x`s normal car waxes.

**Todd@RUPES** · 10-06-2008, 10:20 PM

This wax is really expensive.

**Todd@RUPES** · 10-06-2008, 10:35 PM

Always a good read, what happens if you actually make something that is 70% carnauba...

Mysteries of the Carnauba Trade Pt 2, Fun with weight - Detailing World

**CalgaryDetail** · 10-06-2008, 11:16 PM

I just donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t get why everyone is spending so much time an energy preaching their side to a deff recipient. I can grantee people have there options and this thread is going to change little to nothing

I used to do it I know; I used to really enjoy it. I had fun debating it. If you have fun with it then all the power to you

But lets all face it, it comes down to if the customer is happy, if they are then they have received the value of the wax then I see no quam about a person spending 2k on wax...

every company uses some sort of marketing system to sell there product, Zymol has found one that works for them. Its no diffrent then any other industry, look at any car, they tell you all the great things but not all are "as true" as they say.

This is all just my opion of course, but I figured I would tune it

**imported_rydawg** · 10-06-2008, 11:19 PM

That`s a great thread over at DW Todd. That`s HARD truth right there.

**imported_rydawg** · 10-06-2008, 11:20 PM

I thought Vintage was $1800? How did it rise to $2200?

**lbls1** · 10-07-2008, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by TH0001

How about you call a carnuaba chemist... Or ANY independent source...

Also I have provided a `how` or `why`.

Why, because modern VOC solvents will not allow it...

The research is easy to do and independent sources are easy enough to find, I personally think you have avoided the research because deep down you don`t really want to know that you paid 2200 dollars (or whatever) for a wax that was spun off of Meguiars.

Let this be a lesson, if you are going to purchase something expensive, before spending money do your research. Otherwise you might find yourself defying logic and science to justify a purchase that most people (possibly yourself) cannot tell a difference.

Perhaps I am wrong, but I remember one of Zymol`s claims being 100% natural or something similar.

You have proven to me (something that I know, btw) that all NATURAL carnuaba is yellow. So they bleach or add montan wax (or the newest technique btw is micro graining) to make the wax look whiter.

So there are different ways to make carnuaba whiter, but still no such thing as natural white carnauba.

Then again I am assuming that you also feel that paint needs to `eat` and be fed. I guess I could drum up a couple painters, chemists, and who ever to tell you thats not true either...

I don`t mean to come across as rude and I understand that it just how blunt comes across.

In the end if you are happy with your purchase and you `see` the difference, then more power to you and more power to anybody who is.

It is one of the better looking waxes I have used, although the durabillity is rather poor in my experience.

If you want scientific proof then you will have to do your own research and I can provide you with some good numbers to get you started but I will not reveal my sources publically and would ask that you wouldn`t share them as well.

This post makes no sense at all. Zymol never made any claim written or otherwise, where they stated that their waxes were 100% natural.

Secondly, you stated that there was no such thing as White Carnauba, which in fact producing white wax has been an old tradition by some makers in the industry; and the source quoted listed several known methods of manufacturing the wax. Whether the wax was made white or naturally white wasn`t even a point of debate. The referenced source quoted contradicted your statement, and several wax products exist in the market that contain the white wax compound.

Third, you still have not produced any credible information that would help explain exactly what you are trying to discuss. There`s really nothing left to talk about because this is a very twisted point that you`re trying to debate without any real information.

**imported_Picus** · 10-07-2008, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by TH0001

Always a good read, what happens if you actually make something that is 70% carnauba...

Mysteries of the Carnauba Trade Pt 2, Fun with weight - Detailing World

Everyone has an agenda, Todd, not just Zymol.

**wfedwar** · 10-07-2008, 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by TH0001

Not true at all...

In Concours it states that the product is 90% white (doesn`t exist, I guess they meant 90% of it is either a) micro refined b) mixed with montan wax c) bleached) and 50-some percent carnauba by `volume`.

Not wet volume. Not dry volume... .just volume.

P21S says "P21S breaks the carnauba barrier with 100% Carnauba Paste Wax. Why are you focusing on Zymol when this is apparently an industry thing. Like it or not, I think the % carnauba refers to % of wax, not % of the jar.

Like said in many other posts, white carnauba does exist. It`s just refined yellow wax. I don`t see your point.

**Todd@RUPES** · 10-07-2008, 09:28 PM

Wow 1lbs, you know a lot of about Zymol. You must read their marketing?

**Todd@RUPES** · 10-07-2008, 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by Picus

Everyone has an agenda, Todd, not just Zymol.

Maybe, but I don`t. I do not really care what wax people choose to buy. In fact I have not used any wax in particular that was `that much` better then another. Most look the same to me with sublte changes (PS21 100% is more clear and sharp IMO) while Nattys Blue is probably a little warmer and deeper.

Same when I look at the Zymols and so forth. I wouldn`t say Vintage does anything better then any other wax. To me Zymols look is inbetween P21s 100% (not quite as sharp/glossy) and Nattys Blue (not quite as deep). So IMO, you are paying 2200 dollars for a wax that falls between a 45 dollar wax and a 20 dollar wax. It does have slightly better durability then both, but then again it marginally harder to apply.

**lbls1** · 10-07-2008, 10:47 PM

It appears that we are at an impass on this issue. We won`t really get a chance to resolve our difference in opinion, but let me just voice my disappointment with a few highlights.

1. There was not a necessity on my part to do any investigating research into a claim made by anyone. I have two sources of information to choose from. One wax maker with 30 years of experience, a worldwide market and customer acclaim, and the presence of their products in the market which appears to have built a solid customer base thru-out their tenure of being in this business. This company has made an acclamation about the quality and validity of their products, and to this day remain as a respected brand name that (to my knowledge) has not been sanctioned for fraud or misleading advertising.

The other source of infomation came from a challenge to the claim of the contents made by yourself, which to my knowledge has not been substantiated by any referenced sources or a concise explanation of any of the points that was raised. To my knowledge I am not aware of any wax product or research that you`ve done yourself or in conjunction with the several wax makers or suppliers that you quoted in your earlier responses. You did not share who those sources were, and what their experience or background were in relation to this topic, or any information from these people that could`ve aided this discussion.

Thus, given these two sources, and in addition one or two similar wax products made by other wax manufacturers that have a similar wax formulation to the subject wax manufacturer (Zymol), which source would one tend to believe? The experienced wax vendor with a proven track record, or a bulletin board participant with inconclusive statements and insufficient supporting information?

2. In addition, several requests for supporting information to the charges made by you were either denied or ignored for reasons that are unknown.

3. After a lengthy article by yourself, you made an admission that you didn`t know how Zymol measured their wax or came up with their percentage for their wax ingredient. You also didn`t discuss why the percentages stated by zymol were a `Scientific Impossiblity.`

Given all of this, why would one wonder how someone would believe one side and not the other? Answer: Because one side has tangible evidence, that being the product and reputation, while the other side hasn`t shown any evidence to its claim.

Ok not finished yet: If this was just a discussion based on your experience and being that the experience was as a hyperbole, then I can understand that. That is not a problem at all. In fact, that is how a lot of us learn about products and techniques. The issue occured when that experience was (to me) trying to be posed as truth and absolute law. It was this instance that I demanded to see and hear the evidence of such law.

But...at any rate, the discussion was at least interesting, if not informative.

**Todd@RUPES** · 10-07-2008, 11:56 PM

Originally Posted by lbls1

It appears that we are at an impass on this issue. We won`t really get a chance to resolve our difference in opinion, but let me just voice my disappointment with a few highlights.

I agree that this will never be resolved. I cannot stress enough that I am willing to share with you the phone numbers of chemists who will `off the record` inform you. I would only ask that you would be so open as to provide me with the number or contact information of those who would back your statements. I tried Zymol and they could not/would not answer my question specifically.

1. There was not a necessity on my part to do any investigating research into a claim made by anyone. I have two sources of information to choose from. One wax maker with 30 years of experience, a worldwide market and customer acclaim, and the presence of their products in the market which appears to have built a solid customer base thru-out their tenure of being in this business. This company has made an acclamation about the quality and validity of their products, and to this day remain as a respected brand name that (to my knowledge) has not been sanctioned for fraud or misleading advertising.

I disagree agree 100% with your entire statement but understand your premiss. I take it that despite what DuPont,PPG, and other paint manufacturers would tell you, you believe that the respected an unrefuted Zymol.. Paint must eat!

I have no knowledge if they have been sanctioned, but I know there is no sanctioning body. I do know that in the UK they will not mention names of certain compaines because they have a reputation for sueing to protect their image. I don`t know if this reputation is unfounded or not.

I believe that quoting or turning to marketing as a source of scientific claims is similar to watching the Presidental Debate and choosing a canidate.

The advertising on HD Cleanse has changed, but it used to boast that it was non-abrasive and removed swirl marks, for example. I no longer see the wording non-abrasive to their credit.

The other source of infomation came from a challenge to the claim of the contents made by yourself, which to my knowledge has not been substantiated by any referenced sources or a concise explanation of any of the points that was raised. To my knowledge I am not aware of any wax product or research that you`ve done yourself or in conjunction with the several wax makers or suppliers that you quoted in your earlier responses. You did not share who those sources were, and what their experience or background were in relation to this topic, or any information from these people that could`ve aided this discussion.

There was no challange because, IMO, you have not presented one. Marketing (such as non abrasively removing swirl mark or feeding paint) means nothing to me, nor should it to anybody. Certainely before plunking down 1500-2200 dollars for wax you searched out more independent sources and I would choose you share those with us. Otherwise you are quoting marketing....

Thus, given these two sources, and in addition one or two similar wax products made by other wax manufacturers that have a similar wax formulation to the subject wax manufacturer (Zymol), which source would one tend to believe? The experienced wax vendor with a proven track record, or a bulletin board participant with inconclusive statements and insufficient supporting information?

I cannot stress enough that I have no offered to give you a couple good leads of people to speak with...

Who would I believe? A) A company that feeds paint and charges 45,000 dollars for car wax or

Somebody who has no vested interest other then education and sharing his experience?

B.... By a long shot, not even close.

2. In addition, several requests for supporting information to the charges made by you were either denied or ignored for reasons that are unknown.

Not true and probably the most false statement. I have offered several times to provide you with the information.

3. After a lengthy article by yourself, you made an admission that you didn`t know how Zymol measured their wax or came up with their percentage for their wax ingredient. You also didn`t discuss why the percentages stated by zymol were a `Scientific Impossiblity.`

Um.... Don`t know where to start with this statement.

I do admit that I don`t know how Zymol measures there wax, but it isn`t for lack of effort on my part. I called twice, asked, and recieved no answer. I spoke to a vendor in New England who told me that it is by weight. When I asked if the weight takes into consideration that solvents often weigh 2-4 times as much he just gave up and started quoting marketing.

I will explain to you AGAIN why it doesn`t work or you can read the link I posted.

Because VOC regulations have limited not only the strength but the amount of solvents that can be used in automotive waxes, you can only cut so much carnauba into the product and make it applicable. Most of the people I spoke with agreed that anything about 17% solids would be about impossible to work with. One guy suggested that you could get it as high as 35% but would have to use montan wax in conjuction with something else to `deliever` the wax to the surface.

Given all of this, why would one wonder how someone would believe one side and not the other? Answer: Because one side has tangible evidence, that being the product and reputation, while the other side hasn`t shown any evidence to its claim.

If by tangiable evidence you mean slick marketing, then okay....

If you mean by selling a 45,000 dollar car wax or by selling a 2200 dollar car wax that doesn`t look as deep as Collonite #915, as warm as Nattys Blue, or as clear as P21s 100% then I would agree...

If you mean that it doesn`t last as long as a sealant or Collonite I would agree...

Keep in mind you are talking about car wax..

Ok not finished yet: If this was just a discussion based on your experience and being that the experience was as a hyperbole, then I can understand that. That is not a problem at all. In fact, that is how a lot of us learn about products and techniques. The issue occured when that experience was (to me) trying to be posed as truth and absolute law. It was this instance that I demanded to see and hear the evidence of such law.

No different in terms that I would like like (or even demand as you put it) to see evidence that supports your views. I do not (for the last time) count marketing as anything close to evidence, espically when the marketing removes swirl marks with magic and feeds paint...

But...at any rate, the discussion was at least interesting, if not informative

To an extent I`m sure..

The only information you have provided has been none, however.

It is obvious (to me) you haven`t done research on your own. Why is it obvious, then you would have a different opinion, period (or you would continue to believe the sellers of the product to support spending that much on wax).

However you are happy with your purchase and you are so uninformed about carnauba waxes that you don`t see the plain truth in what I have said. I don`t need to quote sources to tell you the sky is blue...

I understand your take and understand you will hammer my not offering sources (while ignorning my rebutal and offer). I understand you believe you need to feed your paint. I would as well if I spent 2000 dollars on a car wax (if it where not to make money).

I am done, my offer has been made. Enjoy your wax and please don`t research its validity, I think you will be happier.