BMW clear is an enigma, wrapped in a riddle, and smothered in secret sauce.

**BuffMe** · 04-28-2008, 12:40 PM

This past weekend I detailed the exterior of my roommate`s black `05 BMW 5-series. This thing was heinous with swirls, spider-webbing, rids, you name it. It has seen many many car washes and "details" in its day, but she was getting tired of it. After a couple months of watching me doing cars most every weekend, she broke down and admitted she was ready for the real deal... but little did I know what was in store for me with this paint...

This paint was so incredibly hard, it took 4-5 passes with a PC using LC purple foamed wool and SIP, moving at about 1"/second or slower. Needless to say, I spent about 11 total hours on the paint doing 3 passes with this combo on the vertical panels, and another pass or two on the bonnet areas, depending on how horrible the scratches. were. I followed this up with 1 pass of SIP/Orange then finished up with DG #105 (and let me just say, this stuff looks absolutely amazing on black... stay tuned for a C&B later tonight). So, all said and done, I`m wiping the hood down with a freshly washed/cleaned plush MF from Tropi-Care for removing wax, and what do you know... I saw myself putting scratches into the hood. WHAT THE @@$#@?

Anyone else experience this ridiculous anomaly? How could paint be so hard to correct yet so easy to scratch? I don`t get it...

**brwill2005** · 04-28-2008, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by BuffMe

This past weekend I detailed the exterior of my roommate`s black `05 BMW 5-series. This thing was heinous with swirls, spider-webbing, rids, you name it. It has seen many many car washes and "details" in its day, but she was getting tired of it. After a couple months of watching me doing cars most every weekend, she broke down and admitted she was ready for the real deal... but little did I know what was in store for me with this paint...

This paint was so incredibly hard, it took 4-5 passes with a PC using LC purple foamed wool and SIP, moving at about 1"/second or slower. Needless to say, I spent about 11 total hours on the paint doing 3 passes with this combo on the vertical panels, and another pass or two on the bonnet areas, depending on how horrible the scratches. were. I followed this up with 1 pass of SIP/Orange then finished up with DG #105 (and let me just say, this stuff looks absolutely amazing on black... stay tuned for a C&B later tonight). So, all said and done, I`m wiping the hood down with a freshly washed/cleaned plush MF from Tropi-Care for removing wax, and what do you know... I saw myself putting scratches into the hood. WHAT THE @@$#@?

Anyone else experience this ridiculous anomaly? How could paint be so hard to correct yet so easy to scratch? I don`t get it...

Are you sure it was not streaking, as opposed to scratching?

**BuffMe** · 04-28-2008, 12:58 PM

Yep. These were very fine scratches that a mist of qd would not take out.

**Boomer44** · 04-28-2008, 12:58 PM

I have a jet black `08 335i and let me tell you that you are not alone. I did the same thing a couple of weeks ago. And I am 100% sure that there was nothing on the MF towel (super-plush). I even noticed on my trunk lid where I would grab with my finger tips to close that there is scratching from my fingers. When I noticed that I checked my finger to make sure it was clean, and then rubbed it on an inconspicuous area and guess what, it left a scratch. I was and still am perplexed. I have come to the conclusion that I am just going to have to accept that this paint is "flawed" by design and keep it as pristine as possible. And my next BMW is not going to be jet black.

Great look though when clean!

**Envious Eric** · 04-28-2008, 04:03 PM

soft paint...when a MF scratches, its soft paint, or debris in the towel...

and why a wool pad with the PC...IMO that is part of your problem...a yellow foam pad would have cut faster...I have tried the purple wool with the pc and in my experience, it was a waste of time...created more hazing and swirling that it took out. up your compound and use a foam pad next time...

again, just my experience with that wool/pc combo

**sneek** · 04-28-2008, 04:17 PM

Maybe the paint was super soft, and you were inflicting the scratches that you are seening, then removing again. The E90/92`s don`t have baked paint finishes. I don`t know if the E60 is the same though. Super soft paint seems to be more of a PITA then hard paint. I would take hard paint anyday.

**BuffMe** · 04-28-2008, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by toyotaguy

soft paint...when a MF scratches, its soft paint, or debris in the towel...

and why a wool pad with the PC...IMO that is part of your problem...a yellow foam pad would have cut faster...I have tried the purple wool with the pc and in my experience, it was a waste of time...created more hazing and swirling that it took out. up your compound and use a foam pad next time...

again, just my experience with that wool/pc combo

I tried white, orange, yellow, and purple wool, and the wool had the best cut. It created a slight bit of hazing, but that was easily removed with the SIP/Orange pass. If it`s soft paint, why did it take 5 passes of purple wool and SIP on the hood to get it 80% defect free?

**BuffMe** · 04-28-2008, 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by sneek

Maybe the paint was super soft, and you were inflicting the scratches that you are seening, then removing again. The E90/92`s don`t have baked paint finishes. I don`t know if the E60 is the same though. Super soft paint seems to be more of a PITA then hard paint. I would take hard paint anyday.

If it was super soft, the scratches would have changed, depending on how I inflicted new ones with the pad and polish, but these scratches didn`t budge until 3-4 passes into it.

I just don`t understand how something can be so soft but so hard to remove defects.

**imported_Picus** · 04-28-2008, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by sneek

Maybe the paint was super soft, and you were inflicting the scratches that you are seening, then removing again. The E90/92`s don`t have baked paint finishes. I don`t know if the E60 is the same though. Super soft paint seems to be more of a PITA then hard paint. I would take hard paint anyday.

I don`t think this is entirely accurate. It is possible the flat colors are not baked, but I am 99% positive the metallics are. Actually, I think they all are personally. There is a lot of discussion on this site about modern BMW paint. Here is what I know, and what I think is the general consensus.

The flat paints, Jet Black, Crimson Red, and Alpine White, are are soft. Jet Black tends to be unusually soft. I`ve detailed over 40 jet black e90/e92s, all *all* of them have been painfully soft.

The metallics tend to be harder, however Monaco Blue can run on the soft side. Black Sapphire, Space Grey, Sparkling Graphite, Barbera Red, Montego Blue, etc... are all average to hard. My Sparkling Graphite 335i is ridiculously hard, like, rock solid.

Why is this the case? I don`t know. I do think they are all baked, but I have a feeling the metallics have a separate process that hardens them up somehow.

FWIW, I have "re-detailed" several e90/e92s that are JB and they don`t seen to harden up over time, which would indicate they are baked at the factory.

One more thing; when detailing jet black BMWs I am always sure to allow some time between polishing and removal of residue. When the paint is hot it seems to marr much more easily.

**brwill2005** · 04-28-2008, 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by BuffMe

I tried white, orange, yellow, and purple wool, and the wool had the best cut. It created a slight bit of hazing, but that was easily removed with the SIP/Orange pass. If it`s soft paint, why did it take 5 passes of purple wool and SIP on the hood to get it 80% defect free?

How long it takes you to remove defects depends also on how bad the defects were. PC`s are not very efficient at removing anything but very light defects. The abrasives in some polishes need the assistance of the heat created with a rotary to work properly. I still suspect either your paint was contaminated, or your MF was contaminated.

**BuffMe** · 04-28-2008, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by Picus

I don`t think this is entirely accurate. It is possible the flat colors are not baked, but I am 99% positive the metallics are. Actually, I think they all are personally. There is a lot of discussion on this site about modern BMW paint. Here is what I know, and what I think is the general consensus.

The flat paints, Jet Black, Crimson Red, and Alpine White, are are soft. Jet Black tends to be unusually soft. I`ve detailed over 40 jet black e90/e92s, all *all* of them have been painfully soft.

The metallics tend to be harder, however Monaco Blue can run on the soft side. Black Sapphire, Space Grey, Sparkling Graphite, Barbera Red, Montego Blue, etc... are all average to hard. My Sparkling Graphite 335i is ridiculously hard, like, rock solid.

Why is this the case? I don`t know. I do think they are all baked, but I have a feeling the metallics have a separate process that hardens them up somehow.

FWIW, I have "re-detailed" several e90/e92s that are JB and they don`t seen to harden up over time, which would indicate they are baked at the factory.

One more thing; when detailing jet black BMWs I am always sure to allow some time between polishing and removal of residue. When the paint is hot it seems to marr much more easily.

Thanks for the tips. I suppose the only conclusion I can come to is that the paint is unusually soft. However, there were so many deeper imperfections that it took much longer to remove them than a car with harder clear but lesser imperfections. I`m still just trying to wrap my head around this for future knowledge/reference.

**BuffMe** · 04-28-2008, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by brwill2005

How long it takes you to remove defects depends also on how bad the defects were. PC`s are not very efficient at removing anything but very light defects. The abrasives in some polishes need the assistance of the heat created with a rotary to work properly. I still suspect either your paint was contaminated, or your MF was contaminated.

Neither were contaminated. I tried it in several spots with several different parts of the MF and I could easily replicate it.

**04yfz** · 04-28-2008, 04:33 PM

I too was experiencing the same problems with my own jet black. Some advice from picus, (thanks again Kevin), and some new microfibers from detailed image helped me out,(some of the softest and highest quality towels I have used to date). The easiest way for me to finish out this paint has probably been ultrafina.

Never again will I buy a jet black bmw, or any black car for that matter. Too much work just to have it looking good for what seems like 15 minutes. I wish bmw sent their cars over to mercedes for the ceramic clear, that stuff is tough.

**mrgoochio** · 04-28-2008, 06:27 PM

So many horror stories about BMW JB paint.. Hope I didn`t go in over my head!

**Shuskan3** · 04-28-2008, 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by 07e90

I too was experiencing the same problems with my own jet black. Some advice from picus, (thanks again Kevin), and some new microfibers from detailed image helped me out,(some of the softest and highest quality towels I have used to date). The easiest way for me to finish out this paint has probably been ultrafina.

Never again will I buy a jet black bmw, or any black car for that matter. Too much work just to have it looking good for what seems like 15 minutes. I wish bmw sent their cars over to mercedes for the ceramic clear, that stuff is tough.

Agreed! I have a jet black 3 series and it is an absolute pain to keep clean and defect free. If you breathe on the paint it may marr :doh