Tire Browning and Alkaline Tire Cleaners

[Setec Astronomy]

I know this is ground previously traveled. I know that different brands/models of tires behave differently. I did search and found some related questions and answers, but not exactly what I was looking for. Seems that Mike Phillips had something on SCG, but the link doesn`t work and I don`t know that there was anything more that he had there than here or on the megs.com FAQ`s. Sorry this is long I tend to be verbose.



I`ll further preface this by saying that I only work on my own, family, and friends cars and don`t see a huge variety of tires. In my "research" on this topic in the past, I remember reading about the self-protective ingredients in tires that are released through sidewall flexing. As another bit of background, I sometimes will work on poorly cared for cars with filthy tires, which I usually use Eagle One All-Wheel and Tire Cleaner (what used to be A2Z), which is a harsh caustic (alkaline) cleaner. Usually I get this amazing brown muck that foams up when you scrub a(n already brown) tire like that, and am amazed at how dirty the tire was.



I have noticed on a friend`s car with Michelin tires that the back tires got browner than the fronts, and I attributed this to the theory of the antiozonants etc. which migrate from the tire compound to the surface through flexing of the sidewall getting more action on the fronts than the back, thus the back tires were being affected and browning. I also have a car with Michelins, and recently (I`ve had the car for 3 years) noticed the same thing with a slight browning of the back tires. Since I had bought some Hi Temp Tire Cleaner from TOL to have a dedicated tire cleaner, I had tried it a couple of times just to fool around and wasn`t sure if it had actually worked because the tires still seemed brown after.



Several weeks ago I decided to do a really thorough cleaning of the rear tires and make sure all the brown came off. They weren`t really that bad, I maintain them pretty well. I mixed the Hi Temp at the 4:1 water/product ratio, which is the medium dilution. When I sprayed it on the tires and scrubbed with a tire brush, I got the same foamy brown gunk that I have seen with the A2Z, which surprised me a little, but I figured that "boy, this will get them clean". After the first go round, instead of looking cleaner, they looked more brown. I figured maybe old dressing was covering the brown surface, and I had just exposed more. I reapplied and rescrubbed...the brown foamy gunk seemed undiminished from the first time. I think I applied a third time, the brown foam seemed less, the tire seemed cleaner, so I went on to other washing chores. When the tires started to dry, they were still all brown, worse than when I started. The fact that I had so much brown foam and the tires weren`t getting any better made me wonder if I was pulling the brown out of the tires. I made the command decision to keep scrubbing until they were clean, which took 5 or 6 applications total. At this point they seemed to be black, the foam wasn`t brown anymore, however, I was so tired of scrubbing tires I didn`t do anything to the fronts (other than my usual car wash scrub, I think).



I dressed all the tires identically, I have been using some Long Haul Tire Sealant that I got at Big Lots. I like this stuff pretty well (nice smell, decent look, big bottle for $3!), but I was starting to wonder if it doesn`t have some silicone oil in it as well as the PDMS, since the dimethyl silicone oils seemed to be implicated in browning.



So a couple of weeks ago, I notice the back tires are starting to get traces of brown again (in the textured decorative part of the sidewall), while the fronts are good as always...and I`m thinking, what the heck, I scrubbed them for all that time...so I put some dressing on them...I don`t remember if I used the Long Haul or Optimum or 303...so yesterday, the backs look terrible! I took some Pb`s BnB and sprayed it on liberally and rubbed it in, and they look much better. This is bugging me, so I start searching again and reread and some posts (and the Meg`s FAQ) indicate the flexing action and "blooming" of the antiozonants is what turns the tire brown...so that blows my theory of why it`s the backs and not the fronts.



Yesterday I was cleaning my friend Jr`s summer wheels. In order to clean the season`s accumulation of dressing (mostly to keep from getting black hands while polishing/sealing/handling), I used the Hi Temp Tire Cleaner...and got the same heavy brown foaming on both the inside and outside of the tires, even though the insides are only dressed when put away for the winter (with 303). After I was done, I swear they are brown tinged (those tires are not Michelins but Nokian WR`s).



So what is the point of all this? I`m puzzled why I see more browning on the backs than the fronts (which I have seen on two cars, different Michelin models), why do the caustic tire cleaners seem to make this worse, are these caustics leaching the protective compounds out of the tire, and is that bad (I imagine there is only a limited amount of additive in the rubber)? What would be a better cleaner? P21S Total Auto Wash, or just using one of the neutral wheel cleaners like P21S or Griot`s, or APC or Dawn (nooo!!! that will dry out your rubber....I`m kidding). Or is this from the dressings I`m using? I`ve been using the Long Haul recently. I don`t remember it happening with the Optimum, but I do remember it when I used to use AA Detailer`s Choice spray. I happen to take care of my mother`s car, and even though I don`t get to work on it very often, she seems to have no browning on her Goodyears that I use Zaino Z-16 on.



This is another of those topics (like paint issues) where I really wish there was someone from a tire mfg. on this board so we could get some answers straight from the horse`s mouth.

[Accumulator]

Setec Astronomy- You`ve given this a lot of good thought...not such a simple topic, huh?



I too get browning now and then, with no clearly discernable root cause (not that I`ve investigated/considered it to the extent that you have). FWIW, I`ve been using Z16 pretty much exclusively for quite a while, and with all the tires being treated the same way (regular cleanings with diluted Griot`s Wheel Cleaner, occasional deep cleanings with Griot`s Rubber Cleaner, treatment with Z16 when they obviously need it) all I can say is that some get brown and others don`t.



Oddly enough the crappy Goodyear Wrangler A/Ts on the Blazer *never* seem to brown...they`re the only ones that stay black :nixweiss I don`t even bother dressing them much any more. IIRC I generally don`t have browning issues with my snowtires either :think:

[trhland]

ive heard that if you keep useing silicone dressings you will weaken the uv protectant in the tire causeing browning. always stick with water based dressings. ive been happy with pinnicles tire gel .

[Saintlysins]

I post with all intent to provide an answer, or ask a question that I really can’t find a definitive answer on. This is the first post I am hesitant to post because it’s against what I and so many others believe to be the right thing to do. I had a similar (but not to the 6th scrubbing) problem with browning on my old Dodge Ram Sport and the optional raised white-letter tires (Goodyear) on the factory rims for years. So I decided to experiment.

Using a stiff-bristle-scrub-brush into full strength cleaner (although now I can’t remember if it was Spray Nine or Simple Green), scrubbing them up and rinsing, two times. Just like you observed, as the tires dried they still had a brown tinge, but were significantly blacker than before. Here’s where I’m “supposed� to say I applied a water-based tire dressing, but after using them for years and still getting browning (truck only), I decided to use a silicone based gel. Please try and suppress your laughter, but it was “Black Magic’s - Tire Wet�. I know, I know ... I know ... that stuff slings like horse-s#*t off the stable shovel ... but ... I had it in my arsenal, (don’t know how) and being too cheap to throw anything out, decided to ‘waste’ it on the truck tires as a science experiment until it was used up.

By the third application the tires were staying ‘black’ and browning became less and less.

I continued to use the product until I traded it in for the Ridgeline, (a bit more than a year). If the wheels didn’t get cleaned or dressed for several weeks of hard use, they did start to ‘brown’, but it was slight and never as much as before I went to silicone dressing.



If I was to ponder a guess – it’s almost as if it ‘sealed’ the tire and prevented it from gassing off the anti-ozone agents from migrating out of the tires. My only addition to the truck was large fender extenders (dressy mud-flaps) front and rear so the sling didn’t spray down the sides of the truck.

It will be interesting to see what others post as this gets read by more people.

[wannafbody]

Well one possible issue could be the solvents used in clear silicone dressings vs the solvents used in water based dressings.

[Wolf-Strong]

I`ve been using Meguiar`s Endurance and Hot Shine tire shines and have had absolutely no problems with browning. They hold up for weeks for me; now given, this is on a car that is only driven ~200 miles/week and is garaged at night, but that has been my experience. When I was driving ~500 miles a week on a car that was outside 24/7 though, I found that Hot Shine would last a week, and Endurance still stood up for 1 1/2 weeks with a nice finish. It wouldn`t start browning until well over a month after application on that outside car.

[jordanrossbell]

So what is the consensus here...do you think solvent based dressings reduce browning? I personally use a solvent based dressing



Chemical Guys Xtreme Shine Oil Based Dressing

[wannafbody]

Back when I worked at NTB, Michelin and other tire companies advised against silicone tire dressings for the reason that they pulled the rubber additives to the tires surface and could result in premature drying and cracking.

[trhland]

Back when I worked at NTB, Michelin and other tire companies advised against silicone tire dressings for the reason that they pulled the rubber additives to the tires surface and could result in premature drying and cracking.

ive heard that also .

[imported_Yal]

I was using Meguiars insane shine on my Subaru`s Bridgestones and the tires turned brown after a month. When you wash them the suds turn brown. I washed them and applied 303 protectant as a test. Its been 5 months of using it once a month and the browning has not come back. I hope I can find a cheaper alternative to 303 with a little shine, I may try poor boys B&B, but it won`t surprise me if the browning returns when i switch.

[smokinfastlegen]

I used to use Greased lightning on my tires and it would bring out alot of brown gunk and in turn make the tires very brown when they dried. More recently i have tried Megs APC and have not had the browning issue. Got my tires clean, but never gunked brown ( i was using the medium dilution of APC.) I then coated my tires with hot shine applied with a foam applicator and still have not seen any browning (this was about 2 weeks ago.)

[beastie]

I get very little browning when I use EO AllWheel and Tire Cleaner and Original Armor All or 303 on the tires. The oily consistency of Meg`s Endurance & EO Tire Shine seem to attract dirt to tires and turn them brown, Endurance especially. My tires are Toyo Proxes 4`s.

[Setec Astronomy]

Thought I would update this today. Responses went a little off track since I was really questioning whether the tire cleaners like EO AWATC or Hi-Temp are detrimental to the tire, while the responses were mostly "silicone vs. water-based dressings".



I believe I washed the car once since I first posted this and gave the tires my usual scrub with double strength Big Lots Turtle Wax Orange car wash (thanks, Spilchy ), although I might have used Griot`s or P21S wheel cleaner, as I have been meaning to try that on the tires. The browning was still there, and I dressed over it with the Long Haul dressing, which made them look ok, but it rained shortly after and driving in it created a bunch of milky brown streaking on the tire after it dried.



So today, the front tires still looking pretty good, I decided to scrub the back tires and try to get them back to black. The previously mentioned TW didn`t do much, perhaps a slight improvement. So...I decided to use (OMG!) Dawn. Scrubbed them up and got some brownish foam (although that might have just been dressing coming out of my brush). Let them dry a bit and they were improved, but not quite black yet. So I decided to use some of the Lemon Simple Green that I have (this is not the normal SG, but in a clear bottle and is transparent yellow in color). I sprayed a bit on the brush and scrubbed.



After drying the tires looked pretty darn good. I dressed them with the Long Haul and they look excellent, we`ll see how they weather now. For the time being, I`m not going to be using tire cleaners that cause that brown foam, even though I just noticed my AWATC bottle says right on the front "Removes road grime and break (sic) dust".

[Junebug]

I quit using EO all wheel and tire cleaner and switched to a simple green type product - no browning issues. But, if you wash your car at least every 2 weeks, you should be able to clean the tires and wheels with the car wash solution.

[Accumulator]

.. But, if you wash your car at least every 2 weeks, you should be able to clean the tires and wheels with the car wash solution.

I`ve tried that with the same stronger-than-normal mix of Griot`s Car Wash and it didn`t work as well as I`d hoped. I do better with diluted Griot`s Wheel Cleaner and/or diluted Griot`s Rubber Cleaner. It`s sorta tricky to find something strong enough to get `em clean but not so strong that it completely strips the Z16 I normally treat the tires with.



Oddly enough, the crappy Goodyear Wrangler A/Ts on the Blazer are looking great with no dressing and at-every-wash cleanings with diluted Griot`s Rubber Cleaner. Nice and black, no browning. Wish I could get the "good" tires on the "good" vehicles to stay nice that easily!