Water beading and the longevity of waxes and sealants...LONG

[usdm]

I posted this on another site. Not sure where it falls in this forum, so I post here.



I think most of us understand and/ or at least agree to some extent, that the initial prep work is what will make or break the total appearance of a car. To a lesser extent certain waxes and sealants can also help to enhance the appearance of a refinished panel, with the primary effect of protecting the paint surface in one way or another.



But there is always the question of how long does the protection of sealants and waxes last, and more importantly, how does one know when it has worn out.



I brought this up because of something interesting I

discovered while working on the "reddish car"



I used the HC paint leveler on the panels. Then I followed up with the Menzerna twins. As the car was dirty from all the leveler and wool strands flying all about, I gave the car a hose down and then a wash. The water beaded very hard, not just big blobs, but very tight, uniform drops. This was going throughout almost the entire wash. When I did the final rinse, whatever drops left over were uniform as well. Didn`t seem to matter if the drops were on horizontal or vertical panels, either. In all the years I have worked at my father`s shop, and with all the compounding and polishing and glazing products on hand, have I ever seen anything like this before.



Now, I`ve been playing with all sorts of stuff on my car, settling finally with WG as the LSP for now. Prior to me using it, the car was hit with a coat of FPII with a rotary, and then followed up with some VM, and then the WG. Before using the VM and WG, I washed the car down with some QEW. Now when the water beaded that time, I just assumed it was the stuff in QEW doing it, so I never paid it any mind. Since that initial application of VM and WG, I would do the WG about every 3 weeks or so; primarily because I like the look. But after seing what I saw Sunday, I do wonder as to how long it really does last.



Some folks have been quick to dismiss WG and some other products as a good long term sealants. And quite a few folks have made a point of stating that water beading is not an indication of how long a product lasts, irrespective of the product used.



So I guess my question to this long winded thing is, what effective method is there to see how long a product will last? Judging by Sunday, beading is definitely not a way to know for sure that there is still product on the car, doing what it`s suppossed to do.



Any constructive or productive feedback will do.

[Accumulator]

Leaving appearance, feel, etc. out and sticking to the beading: As you`ve found, a smooth/well-polished but unprotected surface will bead water. Fresh paint does it too. But this won`t last long and you can observe the changes- they`re not all that subtle and they usually happen rather quickly.



Once a surface has been treated with a LSP the surface will display the beading characteristics of the LSP- usually different from the beading you got through the prep and longer-lasting at any rate. As the LSP degrades there will be a change in the beading characteristics in the areas of degradation. And the no-longer-protected areas won`t bead *soley due to their prep* for very long if the vehicle is actually used in the real world.



Example: Start with well polished/new paint. Apply LSP. Wash regularly and each time, clay a particular area, like behind a rear wheel. After a while the effects of time/wear/washing/claying will remove the LSP from the area in question. So at some point, when you wash it you`ll notice that the area behind the rear wheel no longer beads the way the rest of the vehicle does. The difference might be subtle at first, but after the next wash or two it`ll be very noticeable. Once the LPS is gone, the finish won`t bead for long, at least not like the still-protected areas.



So *IMO* beading is of *some* evaluative use. When you see a difference, something is different. If the difference is *not* good, that`s a clue as to how the LSP is holding up. Of course products that "sheet" are a whole `nother topic, and some, like certain sealants, bead at first and *then* sheet. With those, I refresh when they no longer bead just to be on the safe side. But then I miss out on the supposed advantages to sheeting So who knows *what* the real answer is where those products are concerned :nixweiss



OK, who`s next I wanna see what the manufacturer`s reps say about this one....

[Bobby G]

You ask a great question. How do you know when protection is diminished to a point that your paint is no longer being protected? Let me share some of the non-scientific points that serve my cars well:



How does it feel – If the paint surface feels dry (your hand or a cloth drags), it’s a pretty good indication that there’s nothing left between you and the paint finish. All paint finish protectants (glazes, waxes and sealants) will create a finish with less friction (surface tension) than the paint itself.



How does it respond to water, washing and quick detailers? -- Most of us learned from the neighborhood or family car nut that when your wax stops beading the car needs to be re-waxed. This still has some truth to it and is support my comments above. A waxed finish better have less surface tension than a finish without wax. You should know how your “waxed finishâ€� responds to water. When it stops responding this way, well… the wax is gone! You should also know how your quick detailing spray responds to a freshly waxed finish. Normally, when your wax is fresh the QD spray wipes off clean, quick and easy. This changes as the wax finish degrades. On an un-waxed finish, most QD sprays take longer to wipe off. Some may even streak.



A little more subjective is paintwork appearance. Does the appearance of good gloss indicate protection? I say it does not. I can apply a few coats of wax to my neighbors work truck and it won’t take on much of a shine… but it’s protected. Likewise, I can polish a paint finish and not wax it. After a single wash, all protective films will be gone, but the paint will still shine great. So, how the paint looks is too subjective and there are too many variable to include it as a factor in determining “protectionâ€�.

[Mr. Chemist]

It is a confusing issue. Some products when applied really show a lot of surface tension....others, not so much. Some of the synthetics do not appear to bead water as dramatically as natural waxes....and sometimes they feel "sticky" as opposed to slick. But yet they are still there...protecting the finish.



I also Know of some synthetic waxes...that bead water like crazy!!!



Since there are so many different attributes to so many different products, I personally have taken the time line our of the equation....and recommend that the car be polished or waxed when it begins to lose it`s luster.



As a rule of thumb to the consumer, we recommend that the car be polished and or waxed every 8 to 12 weeks. With this regime, a car will never go long without being adequately protected....and will also look very good the majority of the time.



Right now, I have let my truck get dirty as a test....so forgive me I gotta go wash it...it`s driving me nuts!!!

[chevyguy28]

Product slickness tends to be a favorite quality of mine in a LSP, partly because it tells me when the product is degrading. The problem however is that some products lose slickness very quickly, but protection remains. I therefore switch to Accumulator`s method of seeing how the beading is different. For example, so polymer products will sheet water.

[Accumulator]

I purposely omitted it when discussing beading, but I probably use "slickness" and "feel" the most when it comes to the LSPs on my "good" cars. With stuff like UPP and many waxes, at the first sign of a change in the slickness, I give it another coat. "..Side of caution..." and all that.



Back to beading as an indicator- Funny how KSG in particular seems to behave differently for so many people...mine (6 coats) is just starting to sheet on the MPV`s frequently-clayed areas after more than a year, but it`s still beading tightly on most of it (including the horizontal surfaces). By the time the whole thing "sheets" I`d go nuts...I`m gonna redo it soon even though it still looks/feels/acts well protected. I see plenty of neglected Mazdas, so if it weren`t protected it`d look like they do, and water would act the way it does on *them* instead of the way it does on *mine*. Heh heh, no flames for the way I neglect the poor minivan (remember, I clean its undercarriage at every wash)

[Bobby G]

Maybe this requires a discussion on what constitutes "protection" and "protection from what?":



1. Corrosion

2. UV light

3. Pollutants that cause paint damage



Let`s face it, making paint look good and protection are two very different capabilities.



db

[shaf]

Interesting stuff. Personally I use a rough combination of both slickness and water behaviour to "guesstimate" if a wax or sealant is gone, similarly to how David does. More weight is put on slickness for me though.



Additionally I`ve found that worn waxes and sealants sometimes can become very slick again with QDing. When the protection is really gone (water is pooling quite a bit and the paint feels dry/bare), QDing does not rejuvenate as much slickness. I remember bringing this up earlier, and some people commented that QDing bare paint for them made it very slick, but I wonder if this is on freshly polished paint, and not the tired, weatherbeaten paint that I have experienced this effect on.....



I also got the Klasse sheeting effect once, but then later it went back to beading! This may have also coincided with the wearing away of my wax topper however... my memory is a bit fuzzy on this. The finish wasn`t detailed again for (ahem ) a "long time" after this, and yet it responded well to QDing and the paint still retained its gloss. Water beading/run-off was greatly reduced, and slickness was down, but I still strongly felt that the paint was protected.





How about this one: Is it possible to have a product that both does not bead water (at all) and is not slick (at all), but still "there" and protecting the paint?

[beanbag]

I have a thread titled "3M SMR`s fillers rule" where I can tell how long a wax/polymer lasts by seeing how long it can hold in fillers before they fall out and the surface becomes hazy again. ~2 months for 3M paste wax/Blitz, 3 months+ for UPP. Car parked outdoors.

[usdm]

Thought i would just bring this back from the archives



Anyway, A few weeks back, I did my dad`s car. My

finishing touches were Hi Temp PPG, and topped with

#16. Unless absolutely required, the car does not come

out of the garage.



Well, my dad decided to take her out anyway before i

had a chacne to clean her up real good. He drove her in

the rain, and brought her back since the wipers were

not working. He then poceeds to do a "wash" on the car

and put it back in the garage. Now, it may be that I`ve

gotten a more subjective eye since coming here, but when

I went back to do some more work on the car, I could see

all sorts of nasty waterspots. No time to really get her

squared away so I left her until last Friday.



So I take her out last Friday to do the wash. I hose her

down and see some tight beading interspersed with some

larger beads. I found this really weird, since virtually every

car that I`ve applied #16 to (since my review of the wax)

beads pretty uniform and somewhat tight. I use some

experimental shampoo that PB is working on (really nice

I may add). I do an initial rinse just to see if the

shampoo had any effect on the beading. Beading was now

even tighter and more uniform than before the wash. I do a

final rinse to get most of the water off, and then I wipe her

down dry. After the wipedown, I gave her a touch on some

sections of the car. And I could not feel any slickness at all.

Every section I touched just felt clean, but not slick. Now I

have never known 16 to be really slick anyway (at least in

comparo to the sealents I use), but in all the other times

I`ve used it, there was slickness to it.



So now I am wondering just how much an effect other

products (including shampoos) would have on slickness-

especially if these same products are not suppossed to have

any detrmental effect on waxes or sealants?

[beanbag]

Originally posted by usdm

I hose her

down and see some tight beading interspersed with some

larger beads.



that`s coz the rinse did not take all the dirt off the surface, so some stuff is left that affects the beading.





I found this really weird, since virtually every

car that I`ve applied #16 to (since my review of the wax)

beads pretty uniform and somewhat tight. I use some

experimental shampoo that PB is working on (really nice

I may add). I do an initial rinse just to see if the

shampoo had any effect on the beading. Beading was now

even tighter and more uniform than before the wash.



that`s coz the surface is clean now





After the wipedown, I gave her a touch on some

sections of the car. And I could not feel any slickness at all.

Every section I touched just felt clean, but not slick.



Try buffing the car, (either with a plain dry MF towel, or some S&W) and check the slickness again.





So now I am wondering just how much an effect other

products (including shampoos) would have on slickness-

especially if these same products are not suppossed to have

any detrmental effect on waxes or sealants?

Mebbe your dad botched up the washing and stripped a lot of the wax.