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  1. #286
    BudgetPlan1's Avatar
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    Re: Think I`m done messing around with coatings, final thoughts...

    Quote Originally Posted by rlmccarty2000 View Post
    I would love to have a few manufacturers back off of the hardness claims and discuss (openly) the pros and cons of hardness. I feel much of this stuff is done on the fly and trying to be the first to market is beating actual testing (uh CarPro) and we get to be the beta testers.

    A major problem (I’m finding) is most of the R&D is being done outside the US so there is a huge language problem. Trying to discuss or ask questions to a non-English speaker (native) can be very frustrating. The translation comes across as “you take, you like”. I’m not slamming non-English speakers at all as I only speak a few words of Japanese/Korean despite living on Okinawa and working in S. Korea. We (Americans) expect everyone to speak English, which is nonsensical.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    I`d guess `limited self healing` or similar will eventually eclipse the incessant marketing of hardness. Just a guess but as more DIY folks, who tend to wash their cars themselves, realize how easily a coated surface can swirl (despite 12 bucket washes), `preventing` will shift focus to `fixing/healing`. If I can take a regular bath/beach towel and dry my coated black hood and leave marks, how hard can the claimed 9h coating really be?

    As for testing, my (again) guess is that the majority if the time in development is spent on the application and aesthetic aspects of the product with long-term longevity kinda based on assumptions of previous formulations using similar components. Can a claimed 8 year coating that was recently released really have been in development/testing for 8 years before release...in a variety of real world situations? Gotta be just an educated guess in that respect.

    I find some of the language barriers to be quite entertaining. Read the instructions on the box, especially the smaller, more boutique mfg`s and ya just gotta laugh at the simple errors. The product is being shipped around the world, the instructions are in `english` but ya couldn`t even find a marginally fluent English speaker to look at it for 30 seconds to catch the obvious, uh, glitches? Comical and always hood for a chuckle.

    I havent been around it long enough to know so I`m curious if this whole detailing Thing has really grown in the last 10-15 years? Was SEMA always such an interesting event in the eyes of detailing folks? Or is has it been relatively steady over the years and I just never noticed?

    Dunno.
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  2. #287
    rlmccarty2000's Avatar
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    Re: Think I`m done messing around with coatings, final thoughts...

    I asked Kisho about self healing coatings and they said they were not developing the technology. They have tested the self healing coatings now available and said that they were not going that way because you can still see the “self healing marks”. My guess is that it does not “heal” enough for them. They sent me a video of their testing of self healing technology. They are in the industry and don’t see a future in self healing coatings.

    I can see the point. If it does not heal 100% then it does not look good. It may be why paint/car manufacturers have stepped away from self healing tech. I hear it is no fun trying to correct self healing paint. I can only imagine. If the tech was good you shouldn’t have to correct it.


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  3. #288
    BudgetPlan1's Avatar
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    Re: Think I`m done messing around with coatings, final thoughts...

    Interesting info from Kisho; one would think they might have a good feel for the playing field as havent they been around since 1965 or something? Thought I read that somewhere on their website.

    For myself, self healing would have many advantages, even if it was only to the extent of the lightest of swirls, perhaps the kind possibly instilled by even a PFM used marginally carelessly. I wouldn`t realistically expect a scratch caused by jewelry or jeans leaning against the paint to heal but even a little help with swirl healing would be advantageous.

    Unfortunately, even a very minor defect instilled over the winter would need special attention unless you just waited until the warm weather arrive. Running around with a heat source or hot water to heal in the winter would be somewhat inconvenient.

    I guess we`ll wait and see what (if anything) becomes the next big thing, LSP wise. Just starting to look into the realities of PPF but that`s certainly not a hobbyist kinda thing so limited opportunities there. I`m sure there are peculiarities and issues with that, will be interesting to find out what they are. Possibly not `better` but maybe merely different?

    On another Japanese note, looked a bit into Sensha; ran across it last year...not quite sure what to think but still intriguing.
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  4. #289

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    Re: Think I`m done messing around with coatings, final thoughts...

    I`m pretty skeptical about 2-part coatings. Heck I`m skeptical about single layer coatings you need to "top." IMO your LSP (literally your outermost layer) does the heavy lifting as far as protection.

    What does interest me is these AIO-type coating products like Essence or Blackfire Primer that provide light polishing with durable fillers and maybe some coating attributes. I`ve always been a fan of AIOs, and anything that helps me get a better finish with less abrasion is good in my book (especially if the filling ability lasts). I`m not sure why anyone hasn`t tried to just market one of these + a topper-type product as a simple system. Probably because adding in layers of coatings racks up the $$$.

    Side note: I define a coating as any LSP that you cannot add another layer of the same product once it`s cured. I.E. you must polish off the previous layer if you want to add a fresh one. Everything else to me is a sealant, even if it has Si02 nomenclature.

    Side side note: I`m not yet sure sure if these "topper" sealants provide the same protection against water spots/bird bombs/bugs much as some of our old school WOWO sealants

  5. #290

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    Re: Think I`m done messing around with coatings, final thoughts...

    Quote Originally Posted by rlmccarty2000 View Post
    This is interesting and I don’t know how many people are noticing a trend. The higher end coatings are going softer. This one says “3-4H pencil scale. The more I learn about coatings the more I wonder if 9H is a good thing or even what we (detailers) should be keying on. I’m having an internal debate on dual layer coatings, which is kinda/sorta what you have when you apply Skin or Gliss over a standard coating. There is a certain amount of flex necessary for a coating not to become brittle and crack/fracture and as we want more hardness (maybe from a hype perspective) less may be ideal. I’m starting to believe a two layer system is best with a hard layer followed by a softer second layer.
    I swear I read somewhere (on the sister site I think) that from a formulator`s perspective mar resistance has more to do with the "slickness" of the resulting surface rather than absolute hardness.
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  6. #291

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    Re: Think I`m done messing around with coatings, final thoughts...

    I reached conclusion for myself regarding all this coating "hysteria".

    It makes sense for garage queen. Perfect paint correction. Twenty something layers of different coating on top of each other. Taken out of garage once in a blue moon.

    For daily driver you do paint correction, coat with most affordable and easy to apply coating ( it will last 12 months for sure and makes it a bit easier to wash/maintain car ).

    Maintain with most affordable stuff every other wash ( McKee`s 37Hydro Blue anyone? ).

    Keep putting swirls, scratches after every wash even during drying it with your best microfiber towel for next 12 months.

    After that repeat this cycle again.

    You won`t have hearth attack discovering new scratches as time goes.

    After another scheduled paint correction and coating it`s shiny and ready for new scratches again.

    I have Wolfgang Uber leftover for at least two more coatings and McKees 37 full bottle. It`s probably another three times so I`m done with buying anything like this .

    Will get some more pads and compound for next spring paint correction.

    Maybe they will come with something extraordinary so I won`t be able to resist. LOL

  7. #292
    RMD's Avatar
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    Re: Think I`m done messing around with coatings, final thoughts...

    Does anyone know when carpro GLISS 2.0 came out? I recently bought some and it shows manufacture date of April 2018. If there were issues with v1, and if that is what I have, I might just trash it and pick up some 2.0.

  8. #293

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    Re: Think I`m done messing around with coatings, final thoughts...

    Vas62- You lost me there...why would it keep getting "swirls, scratches after every wash"? I can see that being the norm for Pros doing Customer cars, so apologies if that`s what you`re dealing with.

  9. #294
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    Re: Think I`m done messing around with coatings, final thoughts...

    Quote Originally Posted by rlmccarty2000 View Post
    I’m starting to believe a two layer system is best with a hard layer followed by a softer second layer.
    The only thing that I see complaints about with this is that the softer layer becomes easier to marr. Then we get the comments from those that we have seen go on about a rant about coatings lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by rlmccarty2000 View Post
    I would love to have a few manufacturers back off of the hardness claims and discuss (openly) the pros and cons of hardness. I feel much of this stuff is done on the fly and trying to be the first to market is beating actual testing (uh CarPro) and we get to be the beta testers.

    A major problem (I’m finding) is most of the R&D is being done outside the US so there is a huge language problem. Trying to discuss or ask questions to a non-English speaker (native) can be very frustrating. The translation comes across as “you take, you like”. I’m not slamming non-English speakers at all as I only speak a few words of Japanese/Korean despite living on Okinawa and working in S. Korea. We (Americans) expect everyone to speak English, which is nonsensical.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    I have not put up my final video on the little coating experiment I am done with. And coating hardness is over hyped. The layer applied to the paint is just not thick enough to do much. Does it help with limiting the amount of wash induced marring compared to a wax or sealant? Yes it does from that perspective. To get scratch protection, one would have to put on a thick layer and I mean thick and at that point the coating is not flexible and will more than likely start to develop fracturing at the microscopic level. Quite possibly even losing optical clarity.

    Quote Originally Posted by DetailZeus View Post
    I`m pretty skeptical about 2-part coatings. Heck I`m skeptical about single layer coatings you need to "top." IMO your LSP (literally your outermost layer) does the heavy lifting as far as protection.

    What does interest me is these AIO-type coating products like Essence or Blackfire Primer that provide light polishing with durable fillers and maybe some coating attributes. I`ve always been a fan of AIOs, and anything that helps me get a better finish with less abrasion is good in my book (especially if the filling ability lasts). I`m not sure why anyone hasn`t tried to just market one of these + a topper-type product as a simple system. Probably because adding in layers of coatings racks up the $$$.
    The need to "top" is an option just like "topping" a wax or sealant. It is no secret that coatings need maintenance just like everything else but at the same time they lose their hydrophobic properties after awhile and the maintenance sprays just add that water behavior back temporarily as we all love our beading. And folks like us always like to put something on the paint so these manufactures figured why not make an extra few dollars.

    Essence is a great polish and it is not that hydrophobic but CarPro does clearly state that one can use Reload over it. They even mention using Essence Plus over Essence as Essence Plus is hydrophobic. Sort of like using it as a sealant. It has been confirmed to me that Blackfire`s primer polish contains no abrasives.

    Another great combination is Gyeon`s Primer Polish + CanCoat. Maintained every couple months with Cure and it is a solid performer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vas62 View Post
    I reached conclusion for myself regarding all this coating "hysteria".

    It makes sense for garage queen. Perfect paint correction. Twenty something layers of different coating on top of each other. Taken out of garage once in a blue moon.

    For daily driver you do paint correction, coat with most affordable and easy to apply coating ( it will last 12 months for sure and makes it a bit easier to wash/maintain car ).

    Maintain with most affordable stuff every other wash ( McKee`s 37Hydro Blue anyone? ).

    Keep putting swirls, scratches after every wash even during drying it with your best microfiber towel for next 12 months.

    After that repeat this cycle again.

    You won`t have hearth attack discovering new scratches as time goes.

    After another scheduled paint correction and coating it`s shiny and ready for new scratches again.

    I have Wolfgang Uber leftover for at least two more coatings and McKees 37 full bottle. It`s probably another three times so I`m done with buying anything like this .

    Will get some more pads and compound for next spring paint correction.

    Maybe they will come with something extraordinary so I won`t be able to resist. LOL
    I have my garage car and daily driver both coated and it sure saves me a lot of time to do other things.

    If you are continually getting swirls and scratches then there is some tweaking needing to your technique. If it is an average customer then to them what do they car as long as their paint is clean and shiny. They could care less about swirls and scratches like we often do here.

    Quote Originally Posted by RMD View Post
    Does anyone know when carpro GLISS 2.0 came out? I recently bought some and it shows manufacture date of April 2018. If there were issues with v1, and if that is what I have, I might just trash it and pick up some 2.0.
    It is available at CarPro`s site for purchase. Send it back to wherever you bought it. The new one is supposed to have V2 or something similar on the bottle.
    Competition Ready Team 1929 Bentley
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  10. #295

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    Re: Think I`m done messing around with coatings, final thoughts...

    Quote Originally Posted by Accumulator View Post
    Vas62- You lost me there...why would it keep getting "swirls, scratches after every wash"? I can see that being the norm for Pros doing Customer cars, so apologies if that`s what you`re dealing with.

    Sorry, I should`ve elaborated more on it.
    I didn`t mean getting some extremely noticeable deep scratches or anything else.
    I will be doing mostly ( 90% of the time ) waterless wash.

    Whenever I got out of the city to my retreat, car gets (will get) full wash with 12 buckets like Budget said.

    That`s from his post : "...more DIY folks, who tend to wash their cars themselves, realize how easily a coated surface can swirl (despite 12 bucket washes)

    No matter how careful I`ll be it creates first some micromarring and then accumulates over the time.

    To be honest that`s not my concern getting some minimal swirls after wash.

    It`s daily driver, and I mean I drive it all day, not going somewhere in the morning and park it until 5pm.

    Then it parked overnight on the city street which expose it to some unwanted by me events (somebody rub his butt agains fender or one of our suicidal bicyclist unchain their bike and bump into my door). City life.

    Washing is performed way more often than I would say "regular" daily driver.

    I might be a little bit over dramatized it.

    But in general it`s what I`m dealing with.

    Car looks better than 90% of the cars I see on the road on daily basis.

    That`s all I need.
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  11. #296

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    Re: Think I`m done messing around with coatings, final thoughts...

    Vas62- Ah, OK, and I do appreciate your expanding on your previous post. And no matter what anybody thinks, IMO...

    That`s all I need.
    That says it all. You`ve found what`s right *for you*.

    With the WW and especially your urban use, yep, marring is gonna happen and you can only do what you can do.

    Apologies if I came across as all Autopian-Judgmental and FWIW, you`ve reminded me how pampered my "daily drivers" really are.
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  12. #297

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    Re: Think I`m done messing around with coatings, final thoughts...

    Quote Originally Posted by Accumulator View Post
    Vas62- Ah, OK, and I do appreciate your expanding on your previous post. And no matter what anybody thinks, IMO...


    That says it all. You`ve found what`s right *for you*.

    With the WW and especially your urban use, yep, marring is gonna happen and you can only do what you can do.

    Apologies if I came across as all Autopian-Judgmental and FWIW, you`ve reminded me how pampered my "daily drivers" really are.
    No apologies necessary.

    This forum was a great help in forming my opinion and view on car maintenance.

    I really didn`t pay much attention all these previous years until I started dealing with black cars.

    It`s really amazing how much work and research (and money) BudgetPlan put in it.

    Thank you Sir from the bottom of my heart.

    Really enjoyed reading all your posts.
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  13. #298

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    Re: Think I`m done messing around with coatings, final thoughts...

    Vas62- Glad I didn`t come across badly...but when I apologize preemptively, *twice* no less, I figure I could`ve worded things better.

    And yeah, black cars are unforgiving! And also the "appropriate vehicle" for a lot of applications where they`re gonna get used hard...vicious circle at times.
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