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  1. #241

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    Re: I don`t want it, you can have it...

    Quote Originally Posted by glfnaz View Post
    I am not an installer for anyone, but I find IGL Premier to be a fantastic entry level coating. It says 6 months and you get 6 months. It`s never streaked for me. Your experience might differ, and that is fine, but I use Premier as a 6 month sealant replacement with the benefits of Sio2 -- the car stays cleaner longer, beads like crazy, and is easier to wash. Plus it`s a 20 minute application. I get 12-15 cars out of a bottle. It`s great for my family fleet of daily drivers.
    Yep, I agree. I mentioned earlier I love premier. I would not classify it as a coating, however. It lacks the hardness that a coating can offer. It is a fantastic silica spray and works great at topping all coatings!
    Michael Daboll
    Aspire Premier Auto Detailing

    -2019 Hyundai Veloster Turbo R Spec 6 Speed Manual (Daily Driver Boston)
    -2011 BMW 328i Sedan 6 Speed Auto (Daily Driver San Diego)
    -1981 Datsun 280zx 5 Speed Manual (Autocross/ Track/ Project Car)
    -1991 Cadillac Deville 4 Speed Auto (Ex-Boston Daily Driver turned project due to rust)

  2. #242
    BudgetPlan1's Avatar
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    Re: I don`t want it, you can have it...

    Quote Originally Posted by m54daboll View Post
    Yep, I agree. I mentioned earlier I love premier. I would not classify it as a coating, however. It lacks the hardness that a coating can offer. It is a fantastic silica spray and works great at topping all coatings!
    I`m pretty much of the opinion that the hardness of a coating is a marketing tool and largely irrelevant. Granted, just my opinion but taken in the context of reality, a hardness of 9h as measured on the infamous pencil test scale might be `technically` over twice as hard as clearcoat, it`s still softer than my fingernail. How it all stacks up in my SiO2-addled brain

    The `h` hardness can be measured in 2 different ways, leading to confusion and exaggeration.

    The Mohs scale of mineral hardness is a scale characterizing scratch resistance of various minerals through the ability of harder material to scratch softer material.

    The Pencil Hardness test employs various graphite pencils of varying hardness to determine the h-hardness measurements. Since even the hardest pencil is still made of graphite (Mohs hardness of 1-2) it seems possible (to me anyway) that even a 9h coating (as measured by the pencil test) is really, comparably, at most a 2h hardness and thus quite easily scratched.

    For the purposes of coating hardness, perhaps considering the pencil test a subset of the Mohs test which, although kinda a generalization may be useful for comparative purposes. The pencil test, based upon graphite testing pencils, then translates into a subset of the Mohs

    MOHS Scale with Pencil Test Subset (and yeah, I just kinda made this up based upon info I could find)

    MOHS Hardness
    1 Talc
    1.5 Graphite


    ---------- Pencil Test Subset applicable to coatings using graphite pencils
    ---------- 1h
    ---------- 2h
    ---------- 3h Average Automotive Paint
    ---------- 4h Average Automotive Paint
    ---------- 5h
    ---------- 6h
    ---------- 7h
    ---------- 8h
    ---------- 9h
    ---------- 10h


    2 Gypsum
    2-2.5 Fingernail
    3 Calcite
    4 Fluorite
    5 Apatite
    6 Orthoclase feldspar
    7 Quartz
    8 Topaz
    9 Corundum
    10 Diamond

    So, given that coatings are measured using the pencil test (graphite) there is no way for a coating to be any harder than 2h measured on the Mohs scale while a fingernail is 2-2.5h on Mohs

    1, Fingernail - 2-2.5h (Mohs)
    2. Clearcoat - 3-4h (Mohs equivalent 1.5h)
    3. A 9h coating - 9h (Mohs Equivalent 1.5h)

    While a coating is indeed slightly harder than the generally accepted toughness of clearcoat, the actual difference is likely very, very, VERY small and my fingernail will still goon up a vaunted 10h coating.

    So, while a mfg can claim that their 9h coating is `more than twice as hard` as your clearcoat, it`s really not saying much.

    Of course there are more than a few other variables that enter into the equation of scratch resistance (substrate hardness, for one) but, for me, the benefits of coating are the resistance to environmental contamination and the self-cleaning characteristics. I stopped caring about scratch resistance long, long ago.

    Dunno if close/correct with my assumptions but it`s currently how I can reconcile claimed hardness with my reality of not so hard after all.
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  3. #243
    Sizzle Chest's Avatar
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    Re: I don`t want it, you can have it...

    ^^^Good info! Puts a lot into perspective!
    Scott Harle
    www.autodermatology.com
    Autodermatology
    Serving Naples and SW Florida
    Instagram: www.instagram.com/autodermatology
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    Thanks BudgetPlan1 thanked for this post

  4. #244
    rlmccarty2000's Avatar
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    Re: I don`t want it, you can have it...

    Quote Originally Posted by BudgetPlan1 View Post
    I`m pretty much of the opinion that the hardness of a coating is a marketing tool and largely irrelevant. Granted, just my opinion but taken in the context of reality, a hardness of 9h as measured on the infamous pencil test scale might be `technically` over twice as hard as clearcoat, it`s still softer than my fingernail. How it all stacks up in my SiO2-addled brain

    The `h` hardness can be measured in 2 different ways, leading to confusion and exaggeration.

    The Mohs scale of mineral hardness is a scale characterizing scratch resistance of various minerals through the ability of harder material to scratch softer material.

    The Pencil Hardness test employs various graphite pencils of varying hardness to determine the h-hardness measurements. Since even the hardest pencil is still made of graphite (Mohs hardness of 1-2) it seems possible (to me anyway) that even a 9h coating (as measured by the pencil test) is really, comparably, at most a 2h hardness and thus quite easily scratched.

    For the purposes of coating hardness, perhaps considering the pencil test a subset of the Mohs test which, although kinda a generalization may be useful for comparative purposes. The pencil test, based upon graphite testing pencils, then translates into a subset of the Mohs

    MOHS Scale with Pencil Test Subset (and yeah, I just kinda made this up based upon info I could find)

    MOHS Hardness
    1 Talc
    1.5 Graphite


    ---------- Pencil Test Subset applicable to coatings using graphite pencils
    ---------- 1h
    ---------- 2h
    ---------- 3h Average Automotive Paint
    ---------- 4h Average Automotive Paint
    ---------- 5h
    ---------- 6h
    ---------- 7h
    ---------- 8h
    ---------- 9h
    ---------- 10h


    2 Gypsum
    2-2.5 Fingernail
    3 Calcite
    4 Fluorite
    5 Apatite
    6 Orthoclase feldspar
    7 Quartz
    8 Topaz
    9 Corundum
    10 Diamond

    So, given that coatings are measured using the pencil test (graphite) there is no way for a coating to be any harder than 2h measured on the Mohs scale while a fingernail is 2-2.5h on Mohs

    1, Fingernail - 2-2.5h (Mohs)
    2. Clearcoat - 3-4h (Mohs equivalent 1.5h)
    3. A 9h coating - 9h (Mohs Equivalent 1.5h)

    While a coating is indeed slightly harder than the generally accepted toughness of clearcoat, the actual difference is likely very, very, VERY small and my fingernail will still goon up a vaunted 10h coating.

    So, while a mfg can claim that their 9h coating is `more than twice as hard` as your clearcoat, it`s really not saying much.

    Of course there are more than a few other variables that enter into the equation of scratch resistance (substrate hardness, for one) but, for me, the benefits of coating are the resistance to environmental contamination and the self-cleaning characteristics. I stopped caring about scratch resistance long, long ago.

    Dunno if close/correct with my assumptions but it`s currently how I can reconcile claimed hardness with my reality of not so hard after all.
    Muddying up the waters even more is the fact that some “9h” coatings are harder than other “9h” coatings. I have no proof to back up that statement except experience in polishing off different “9h” coatings. And then some coatings lay down thicker than others. Does hardness even equate to durability? I’m still trying to figure out how two part coatings work and how a water activated coatings work. Figuring out the science behind coatings makes my head hurt.
    Likes BudgetPlan1 liked this post

  5. #245

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    Re: I don`t want it, you can have it...

    Quote Originally Posted by BudgetPlan1 View Post
    I`m pretty much of the opinion that the hardness of a coating is a marketing tool and largely irrelevant. Granted, just my opinion but taken in the context of reality, a hardness of 9h as measured on the infamous pencil test scale might be `technically` over twice as hard as clearcoat, it`s still softer than my fingernail. How it all stacks up in my SiO2-addled brain

    The `h` hardness can be measured in 2 different ways, leading to confusion and exaggeration.

    The Mohs scale of mineral hardness is a scale characterizing scratch resistance of various minerals through the ability of harder material to scratch softer material.

    The Pencil Hardness test employs various graphite pencils of varying hardness to determine the h-hardness measurements. Since even the hardest pencil is still made of graphite (Mohs hardness of 1-2) it seems possible (to me anyway) that even a 9h coating (as measured by the pencil test) is really, comparably, at most a 2h hardness and thus quite easily scratched.

    For the purposes of coating hardness, perhaps considering the pencil test a subset of the Mohs test which, although kinda a generalization may be useful for comparative purposes. The pencil test, based upon graphite testing pencils, then translates into a subset of the Mohs

    MOHS Scale with Pencil Test Subset (and yeah, I just kinda made this up based upon info I could find)

    MOHS Hardness
    1 Talc
    1.5 Graphite


    ---------- Pencil Test Subset applicable to coatings using graphite pencils
    ---------- 1h
    ---------- 2h
    ---------- 3h Average Automotive Paint
    ---------- 4h Average Automotive Paint
    ---------- 5h
    ---------- 6h
    ---------- 7h
    ---------- 8h
    ---------- 9h
    ---------- 10h


    2 Gypsum
    2-2.5 Fingernail
    3 Calcite
    4 Fluorite
    5 Apatite
    6 Orthoclase feldspar
    7 Quartz
    8 Topaz
    9 Corundum
    10 Diamond

    So, given that coatings are measured using the pencil test (graphite) there is no way for a coating to be any harder than 2h measured on the Mohs scale while a fingernail is 2-2.5h on Mohs

    1, Fingernail - 2-2.5h (Mohs)
    2. Clearcoat - 3-4h (Mohs equivalent 1.5h)
    3. A 9h coating - 9h (Mohs Equivalent 1.5h)

    While a coating is indeed slightly harder than the generally accepted toughness of clearcoat, the actual difference is likely very, very, VERY small and my fingernail will still goon up a vaunted 10h coating.

    So, while a mfg can claim that their 9h coating is `more than twice as hard` as your clearcoat, it`s really not saying much.

    Of course there are more than a few other variables that enter into the equation of scratch resistance (substrate hardness, for one) but, for me, the benefits of coating are the resistance to environmental contamination and the self-cleaning characteristics. I stopped caring about scratch resistance long, long ago.

    Dunno if close/correct with my assumptions but it`s currently how I can reconcile claimed hardness with my reality of not so hard after all.
    Yes, I agree a lot of the hardness claims are crap. I was just saying that an actual paint coating will be harder than a silica spray sealant. It may only be a small amount on the pencil scale, but it can actually make a difference. A cured ceramic coating will need to be polished off to remove. A silica spray sealant will not
    Michael Daboll
    Aspire Premier Auto Detailing

    -2019 Hyundai Veloster Turbo R Spec 6 Speed Manual (Daily Driver Boston)
    -2011 BMW 328i Sedan 6 Speed Auto (Daily Driver San Diego)
    -1981 Datsun 280zx 5 Speed Manual (Autocross/ Track/ Project Car)
    -1991 Cadillac Deville 4 Speed Auto (Ex-Boston Daily Driver turned project due to rust)
    Likes BudgetPlan1 liked this post

  6. #246
    BudgetPlan1's Avatar
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    Re: I don`t want it, you can have it...

    Have an unopened Polish Angel Cosmic V2 kit that, well...I`m just (obviously) not getting around to using. Kinda forgot it was on the shelf, purchased last year during PBMG 4th of July Sale in *2018*.

    50ml Cosmic V2, 50ml Invincible Primer...and a Polish Angel Pen to boot! I did misplace the nice Polish Angel ribbon that they use to tie up the box so that won`t be included.

    I`d really like to send it to someone who can and will use it and report back within a reasonable time frame but will send to whoever responds via PM first and hope for the best. I had a suitable light-use vehicle picked out for this, one that it woulda likely really made look good and probably woulda got to 2 years on it at about 5k miles a year, short, local trips only...I think that`s kinda an ideal use-case for a product like this. I love Polish Angel stuff, it always has a really unique and luscious look to it but if I`m truly honest with myself, just don`t have the motivation to correct and coat another car right now.

    Kinda a bummer but no reason to let it sit for another year...

    PM me your name/shipping info and I`ll send it to ya no charge...

    Attached Images Attached Images
    Likes jojo69, nickclark08, glfnaz, DaveT435, SWETM and 1 others liked this post

  7. #247
    atgonzales's Avatar
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    Re: I don`t want it, you can have it...

    If available I’ll take it
    http://Www.gonzodetailing.com


    Anything in life worth doing is worth over doing, moderation is for cowards
    Likes Coatings=crack liked this post

  8. #248
    BudgetPlan1's Avatar
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    Re: I don`t want it, you can have it...

    Quote Originally Posted by atgonzales View Post
    If available I’ll take it
    Will send it to ya tomorrow...enjoy!
    Likes Coatings=crack liked this post

  9. #249
    acuRAS82's Avatar
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    Re: I don`t want it, you can have it...

    If that falls through, I’m happy to be a backup
    Likes BudgetPlan1 liked this post

  10. #250
    atgonzales's Avatar
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    Re: I don`t want it, you can have it...

    Thank you
    http://Www.gonzodetailing.com


    Anything in life worth doing is worth over doing, moderation is for cowards
    Likes BudgetPlan1, SWETM liked this post

  11. #251
    BudgetPlan1's Avatar
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    Re: I don`t want it, you can have it...

    Polishes, compounds & pads

    Lake Country Hydrotech pads, some lightly used (crimson), some not used at all.

    Liquids:
    Jescar Compound, Never Opened
    McKees Coating Prep Polish, 75% full
    Megs M210, 95% full
    CarPro ClearCut, 75% full
    CarPro Essence, 50% full
    Menz 2400, 25% full
    HD/3D One, 75% full
    Rupes yellow and white, 75% full

    If ya want em, PM me and I`ll ship `em to ya no charge.
    Likes nickclark08, glfnaz, Coleroad, SWETM liked this post

  12. #252
    BudgetPlan1's Avatar
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    Re: I don`t want it, you can have it...

    Claimed, sending out to #bofh...

  13. #253
    rlmccarty2000's Avatar
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    Re: I don`t want it, you can have it...

    Budget what was it about the Jescar Compound that you didn’t like? Or do you have something better? I’m pretty much switching from Menzerma 400 to Jescar Compound, but I could always try something better. Polishes are not as fun to test out as coatings.

  14. #254
    atgonzales's Avatar
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    Re: I don`t want it, you can have it...

    Nicely done, Budget
    http://Www.gonzodetailing.com


    Anything in life worth doing is worth over doing, moderation is for cowards
    Thanks BudgetPlan1 thanked for this post

  15. #255
    BudgetPlan1's Avatar
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    Re: I don`t want it, you can have it...

    Quote Originally Posted by rlmccarty2000 View Post
    Budget what was it about the Jescar Compound that you didn’t like? Or do you have something better? I’m pretty much switching from Menzerma 400 to Jescar Compound, but I could always try something better. Polishes are not as fun to test out as coatings.
    Nothing at all wrong with the Jescar Compound, still have 2 8oz bottles of it...does well with Megs microfiber pads. I guess I was just delusional when I bought it. Was probably doing a truck at work with it, found it doing well and figr`d I keep on going with it...until I switched to something else that worked as well and continued with that instead just to be different.

    Maybe a touch less cut on similar pad than FG400 but less oily. 6 of 1, half dozen of another. Kinda the point of clearing space; for what I do I don`t need 20 different polishes/compounds...nor do I need 32oz of *anything* over the course of a year or more.

    My cars are done for (hopefully) the next 2 years, only have 1 or 2 others *maybe* I`ll do before winter so no need for most of all this stuff I tried. May as well let someone else give it a go to see if it suits them.

    Just too much stuff with no practical need for it. Bought a red B & S Uro-Cell pad a few weeks ago, wanted to give it a try. Shoulda just looked on my shelf as I had 6 unused ones in a box.

    It`s madness.
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