*Cheap* replacement for CRSpotless

[SuperBee364]

There`s been alot of talk here recently about CRSpotless systems. Everyone that uses one seems to be very happy with them, however the cost of entry is very high. Here`s how I`m putting together a CRSpotless type system for.....





99 bucks!!! yup, 99 bucks for a system that should work just as well. The following is a repost, but I thought it might be worth a thread of it`s own if it helps some people save some cash...



The G104 double cartridge filter setup from this page, Garden Hose Filters



Looks like this:







Now add at least one of the FC006 Mixed Bed Deionizing filters from this page, Filter Cartridge Quick Order Chart and you have your own CRSpotless type setup for a whole bunch less cash.



The twin cartridge filter holder is 55 bucks, and the filter cartridges themselves are 27 bucks each. So for 99 bucks you have a system that should perform just darn near as good as a 389 dollar CRSpotless system. Just make sure that you get the FC006 Deionizing cartridges, and *NOT* the water softening cartridges lower on that page.



The one thing missing from this setup that is included with the CRSpotless is a Total Desolved Solids (TDS) gauge that will help you tell when to replace the cartridges. You can buy a cheap TDS gauge seperately, or I guess you could always just replace the cartridges when you start getting water spots. Edit: the filters will change color when they are depleted. Guess you don`t need a TDS after all.



Anyway, I`m going to be getting some of those FC006 cartridges soon to see if they really do work as well as I hope they will. I`ve been using the regular water softening filters and haven`t been very happy with them.



Edit: The filters came today. They look like this:







Note that the resin will change to deep blue when it`s used up. Also, the bottom of the cartridges unscrew, making it simple to replace the resin media with fresh resin instead of having to replace the entire cartridge assembly. This is really good news, as there are several places around that sell de-ionizing media in bulk. Again, this *is not* the same as water softening media that can be recharged with salt. This is the real deal; you`ll get de-ionized (total desolved solids at 0 ppm) water, not just softened water, using these filters. That`s what you want for a completely spot free wash. It`s also what the CRSpotless filters do, but the CRSpotless setups are crazy expensive.



These filters are quite small. I`m hoping that two in series will allow for a 2 gpm flow rate and still get TDS at zero. I don`t have a TDS meter to check for sure, so the paint on my car will have to show whether or not any hardness remains. Since the filters are quite small. I`m planning on using the DI water only for the final rinse through my pressure washer. This is easier than it sounds; I have two hoses hooked up to my pressure washer. One comes straight from the hose bib, the other passes through the cartridges. Each hose has a valve at the end (near the pressure washer) so choosing the water source for the PW is as easy as closing one valve and opening the other. I`ll take a picture of the two hose setup in case anyone wants to get the parts to duplicate it on their own PW.



It`s raining today. Hopefully the rain will break long enough tomorrow to get a good testing in.



More Editing: If you start from here: Environmental Protection Agency - Local Drinking Water Information

you can find out how hard your water is. Using this information, you can determine how many gallons of water these filters will effectively deionize. My water averages 13 grains per gallon (among the hardest water in the U.S.). Each of these filters has an estimated capacity of 300 grains. Since I`m using two (for 600 grains total capacity), that gives me a total capacity of about 46 gallons per set of two filters.



CRSpotless`s cheapest model DIW-10 Spot Free Wash System - Deionized Water Maker - CRSpotless.com

says that it has a 100 gallon capacity. Unfortunately, they don`t give the capacity in grains, so it`s impossible to know how many grains per gallon they base that 100 gallons on. If they use an average hardness of about 7 (which seems fair, as somewhere I read that the U.S. average is 7 grains per gallon), then that would give them a total capacity of about 700 grains. 100 grains more capacity than what my setup has. So for $299.00, you get 700 grains of capacity with the CRSpotless system, or for $100, you get 600 grains of capacity with my system. I`m not a math wizard, but my setup sure looks to be a better deal. Hopefully someone with a CRSpotless can chime in with the actual capacity of their system *in grains* and not gallons.



Edit 4/30/08: I`m very happy to report that it works! And it works very well. Zero water spots after allowing my car to air dry. After washing and rinsing using normal hose water, I gave the car a thorough rinse using the DI filters through the PW and left it completely wet. I allowed it to air dry. No leaf blower, no WW, nothing. Just air. I thought for sure that there would at least be a few water spots behind, but there were none. Even the glass was completely spot free. I`m very pleased with my cheap-o CRSpotless replacement.



In case anyone is interested in being able to supply their pressure washer with two sources of water, here`s some pics of my setup:



Here`s the hose bib with a splitter so you can attach two hoses. Each hose has it`s own shutoff valve.







Here`s the PW with the two hoses coming in. The green hose passes through the DI filters, and the black comes straight from the hose bib. In the picture, the current water source for the PW is the DI filtered water. I bought the parts necessary to do this from Home Depot and Sears. Sears has some decent quality brass quick connects that include built in shut off valves. They are much better quality than the ones from Home Depot. Home Depot carries the two-into-one hose arrangement that goes on to the pressure washer.







Final thoughts: I did decrease the pressure output of the PW for the final spot free rinse to make sure I wasn`t flowing the water too fast through the filters, which would allow some mineral content to slide through. The pressure loss over the two filters wasn`t very much, though. I`d guess I still had about 75% of the flow I have without the filters.



There are also some other ways to put together your own CRSpotless wannabe system that look to be even better than my arrangement. When I get more time, I`ll post the parts, links, and prices to put it together. It`ll flow 3 gpm, and have 1900 grains of capacity for a bit more money than my arrangement, but still substantially cheaper than CRSpotless`s bottom end offering. 3 GPM is more than enough for the vast majority of PW`s to run at full tilt. My John Deere unit says 2.4 gpm minimum input, and it`s a big PW.



Edit: Actually, if you did buy one of these drums RD-1 $195.00 - CRSpotless.com and the filter housings and cartridges from my first post, the cost per gallon would go down to the CRSpotless level, and the cost for the housings and cartridges would be alot cheaper.



So 99 bucks for the two-filter housing and two cartridges from my first post. then 195 bucks for the drum of resin. That would give you 1210 total gallons capacity for $294 total. Now that`s not too bad of a deal.

[budman3]

How do these filters affect the water pressure? IIRC, these filters seem to reduce the pressure. Any comments?

[SuperBee364]

The website seems to suggest that the flow rate coming out of these filters is only 1 gpm, so it`s not something you could use to feed your pressure washer. I won`t know for sure until my filters get here this week.

FlowPro Deionization Cartridge

[imported_mrecktid]

where do you get that white bracket connector thing?



edit - nm read the product description, it comes with it

[chml17l]

SuperBee364, I appreciate all your effort in trying to configure a "cheap" CRSpotless replacement. I had a similar idea when someone first posted the pwgazette link, but I never followed through on putting together a filter system. I am looking forward to your findings.

[blk45]

The drawback to these "cheaper" versions is obviously that you will have to change the filters a lot more frequently. I don`t know if they will work out to be more cost effective or not than the CR units. I don`t have all of the data needed to calculate it. However, the smaller units, like this one, require that you slow the flow of water down drastically to allow enough dwell time for the filters to perform their job. Some of these require the flow to be dropped down to around 1 gpm. This may be ok for some, but not for others.



SuperBee, do you have a TDS meter? I would be interested to see some readings using this setup. I tried the "cheap" route before, and needless to say, I ended up buying a CR. Good luck and keep us posted.

[SuperBee364]

The drawback to these "cheaper" versions is obviously that you will have to change the filters a lot more frequently. I don`t know if they will work out to be more cost effective or not than the CR units. I don`t have all of the data needed to calculate it. However, the smaller units, like this one, require that you slow the flow of water down drastically to allow enough dwell time for the filters to perform their job. Some of these require the flow to be dropped down to around 1 gpm. This may be ok for some, but not for others.



SuperBee, do you have a TDS meter? I would be interested to see some readings using this setup. I tried the "cheap" route before, and needless to say, I ended up buying a CR. Good luck and keep us posted.

The web site does recommend a max inlet flow of 1 gpm. But that`s with one filter. I`m hoping that using two filters in series will allow for a 2 gpm inlet flow rate. I`m sure that they will not last as long as the CRSpotless, but then again, they are also soooo much cheaper. I`m thinking I might look around for some replacement media to make it even less expensive. I`d much rather have a 2 gpm flow rate so I can use it as a water source for my pressure washer, but even a 1 gpm flow rate will be good enough for a final spot free rinse.



I don`t have a TDS meter.. yet. I think I`m going to get one when I order these cartridges.

[BlueLibby04]

Why exactly does removing ions cause the water to spot less? I understand what an ion is but dont know what it spots.



I use a similar setup from that website(carbon filter and a resin filter) and I only use it for the final rinse down. This is really the only time they need to be used unless you cannot keep the entire vehicle wet while youre washing it. Ive never had problems with water spotting using my set-up but Im sure removing ions will make it even better.



The resin filter is re-newable(soak it in salt) and the carbon filter will filter 20k gallons of water.

[Mindflux]

The web site does recommend a max inlet flow of 1 gpm. But that`s with one filter. I`m hoping that using two filters in series will allow for a 2 gpm inlet flow rate. I`m sure that they will not last as long as the CRSpotless, but then again, they are also soooo much cheaper. I`m thinking I might look around for some replacement media to make it even less expensive. I`d much rather have a 2 gpm flow rate so I can use it as a water source for my pressure washer, but even a 1 gpm flow rate will be good enough for a final spot free rinse.

I could only imagine that running another filter inline would halve your flow rate, not double it.

:doh

[Setec Astronomy]

I could only imagine that running another filter inline would halve your flow rate, not double it.

:doh

Some of the issue is how fast the water is passing through the resin and whether it`s got enough time to remove the ions. I think the idea is not that it`s halving or doubling the pressure drop, it`s that it`s doubling the resin area, allowing you to flow more water while still deionizing it. Same reason (I guess) the CR`s are set up in series like that. The industrial DI tank we have at work has a flow limiter on it for this reason (that if you flow too fast the water won`t meet spec). In fact, now that I think about it, my CR came with an orifice disc to put in the hose connection to limit the flow....I wound up not having to use it.

[bwalker25]

Some of the issue is how fast the water is passing through the resin and whether it`s got enough time to remove the ions. I think the idea is not that it`s halving or doubling the pressure drop, it`s that it`s doubling the resin area, allowing you to flow more water while still deionizing it. Same reason (I guess) the CR`s are set up in series like that. The industrial DI tank we have at work has a flow limiter on it for this reason (that if you flow too fast the water won`t meet spec). In fact, now that I think about it, my CR came with an orifice disc to put in the hose connection to limit the flow....I wound up not having to use it.

thanks for clearing up some confusion I had I am going to have to consider this CRS replacement



thanks again

[SuperBee364]

I could only imagine that running another filter inline would halve your flow rate, not double it.

:doh

The 1 gpm flow rate is the rated *input* going *in* to the cartridge before it hits the filter medium, *not* the discharge rate. The manufacturer says that 1 gpm is the maximum *input* flow rate. I`m hoping that, as Setec says, putting an additional filter inline will allow me to double the *input* rate to 2 gpm.

Some of the issue is how fast the water is passing through the resin and whether it`s got enough time to remove the ions. I think the idea is not that it`s halving or doubling the pressure drop, it`s that it`s doubling the resin area, allowing you to flow more water while still deionizing it. Same reason (I guess) the CR`s are set up in series like that. The industrial DI tank we have at work has a flow limiter on it for this reason (that if you flow too fast the water won`t meet spec). In fact, now that I think about it, my CR came with an orifice disc to put in the hose connection to limit the flow....I wound up not having to use it.

[SuperBee364]

Why exactly does removing ions cause the water to spot less? I understand what an ion is but dont know what it spots.



I use a similar setup from that website(carbon filter and a resin filter) and I only use it for the final rinse down. This is really the only time they need to be used unless you cannot keep the entire vehicle wet while youre washing it. Ive never had problems with water spotting using my set-up but Im sure removing ions will make it even better.



The resin filter is re-newable(soak it in salt) and the carbon filter will filter 20k gallons of water.

wikipedia.org has a great article about the differences between "softening" water and "de-ionizied" water. It`s kind of a big conversation for here, but to boil it down and waaaay oversimplify it...



Minerals (a type of desolved solid) are suspended as ions in water. In ion-exchange type water softening, an ion of (typically) sodium (think water softening salt in a home softening machine) is exchanged for an ion of calcium. The "hard" ion of calcium is replaced by a "soft" sodium ion at a one to one rate. This means that the more calcium ions there are in the water (the harder it is) when it goes in, the saltier it will be when it comes out.



In De-ionized water, a filter medium is used that actually removes the calcium ions. These types of filters are not replenishable like the ion-exchange ones are (the ion exchange ones can be replenished by soaking in salt water... that`s what home machines use the salt for). The advantage, though, is that the water is truly soft; not just salty.



The water where I`m at is so hard that the ion-exchange (salt) method of softening just leaves me with sodium spots on my car.



The filter that you mention is of the ion-exchange type, and not a true de-ionizer.



And the reason you want to remove calcium ions is that they are the primary source of hard water spots.

[the other pc]

The 1 gpm flow rate is the rated *input* going *in* to the cartridge before it hits the filter medium, *not* the discharge rate. The manufacturer says that 1 gpm is the maximum *input* flow rate. ....

When you have one hole going in and one hole going out the input rate is exactly equal to the discharge rate.



If the filter’s flow is limited by drop across the filter media, then Mindflux is correct that the flow will be cut in half.



If the flow is limited by some other resistance, such as an orifice as Setec Astronomy mentioned, then the second filter won’t change flow much. (It will change by the ratio of the orifice’s restriction to the filter media’s restriction.)



If the filter is the limiting restriction you can double the flow by running two in parallel instead of series.





PC.

[SuperBee364]

When you have one hole going in and one hole going out the input rate is exactly equal to the discharge rate.



If the filter’s flow is limited by drop across the filter media, then Mindflux is correct that the flow will be cut in half.



If the flow is limited by some other resistance, such as an orifice as Setec Astronomy mentioned, then the second filter won’t change flow much. (It will change by the ratio of the orifice’s restriction to the filter media’s restriction.)



If the filter is the limiting restriction you can double the flow by running two in parallel instead of series.





PC.

You guys are getting a bit mixed up... The web site tells you to restrict the input flow rate to 1gpm for best filtration. I could put five gpm through it if I wanted, but it won`t de-ionize the water at more than 1gpm. Therefore, if i double the surface area of the media (by putting two in series), I`m hoping I can double the flow rate and still end up with fully de-ionized water. There is no actual restrictor on the input side of the cartridge; it is *up to me* to determine how much flow I want to shove through it. I can put two gpm through it if i wanna, or twenty. They just recommend a max flow rate of 1 gpm. Not sure why this is so hard...