Are Water Beads Good or BAD!

[imported_DennisH]

Last weekend I was at the Midwest Nationals Good Guys car show with about 3000 Street Rods but as usual I had to miss Friday and Saturday but manage to make it Sunday afternoon. A group of people got into a conversion with a guy about paints and wax/sealants and he has some really interesting comments. This guy claims he is retired from a major paint manufacture after 38 years and 25 years of that working/in charge of a the automotive paint lab and in his own words “watching paint dry�. The question was asked about making a clear coat that couldn’t be damage as easily by acid rain and etc. While he was talking I was thinking the guy is full of BS but the more I thought about the more I believe he is right so think about it before you call it BS. He said that the current paint protection system promote that if your car stop beading the protection is gone but in real life beading can cause more damage then sheeting. He stated that you have a freshly prepared surface that the beads are high and tight you can have over a pint of liquid trapped on the surface of your car, now you put that in a high humidity climate and slow evaporation it is a recipe for disaster. Those high tight beads can increase the dwell of acid rain by as more than ten fold and on bird bombs by as much as five fold. While the car next to it has zero beads but have the less damage since it has less than the tenth of acid rain trapped on the surface. He also stated that a major vender tried to promote sheeting and was attack by the myth that beads = protection. He also stated that they had test several of the over the counter products and found that paint protection last much longer than the beading and some times as much as 3 to 4 times longer. This guy refused to mention products by name. He laugh and said that this sounds like the cigarettes companies cover-up only this cover-up is by the manufactures of the paint protection. I guess you could debate this to death but the guy made a lot of good points about this. :think2

[TGates]

Interesting points... I can`t seem to draw my own conclusions about this. Water beads are probably like suds. They`re there to make you happy, but who knows? I have also often wondered if beads magnify sunlight like a magnifying glass to an ant, causing more damage to the paint underneath than sheeting water would....

[Perm]

To me is makes a lot of sense to have the water sheet off the car as soon as possible.



My “detailed� car remains wet with beads far far longer than other cars in the car park which means as you say any pollution in the rain will have longer to attack my paint.



However I have yet to find a product that gives the water sheeting affect.

[velobard]

He`s probably referring to Mequiars. Most of their products sheet water rather than bead. I do like that aspect of their products. It`s nice to have a freshly-waxed car be practically dry after a rain after all the water sheets off.

[Setec Astronomy]

Well, I actually started a thread about this a couple years ago: http://autopia.org/forum/showthread.php?t=42967, and we eventually found the "sheeting" wax: http://autopia.org/forum/showthread....5&page=1&pp=12.



The most interesting comment in your post is that the "paint protection lasts much longer than the beading" which brings us back to the question of how can you easily tell when the protection is gone, which I guess is going to bring us back to the squeak test, etc.

[RCBuddha]

Interesting viewpoint, but I am still not convinced that sheeting is better than beading. I mean, if waxes/sealants are to be used to resist contaminants/environment, what good are they if they let said contaminants sit on the surface? Wouldn`t it make more sense for the wax/sealant to repel whatever is falling onto the surface? I can see how beading could magnify or focus the damage onto the surface (into a smaller area), but I would think that if the LSP is doing its job, the repellancy of the LSP should resist said damage.



I have yet to find a wax/sealant that DOESN`T make water run pool up and run off in large beads. If the video is still up, watch how the water reacts on video from this thread: http://autopia.org/forum/showthread.php?t=73829 The way the water reacts while he is rinsing is what I`ve seen from all the waxes/sealants I`ve used.



I tend to agree with Sal Z on the issue:

If the surface has any protection when there is no water beading is the subject of much controversy. Especially when the polish or wax exhibits good water beading immediately after the initial application. If there is any protection left, how would one know? There are no scientific tests to my knowledge that can determine this. Most consumers and especially wax/polish manufacturers use the reduction in the height, contact angle and diameter of water beading as a gauge to know when to re-apply polish/wax for continued protection.



If a polish/wax gives water beading initially but then stops beading after washing, part of the polish formula has been removed. If this happens, is there any protection left???? Was the chemical or film that caused the water beading also the protection????

[Setec Astronomy]

RCB, I tend to agree with Sal`s statement also, in fact this came up in the recent M21 thread. I think some of the "argument" is what defines sheeting? We have all seen cars with nothing on them where water doesn`t bead up at all and just wets the entire surface in a "sheet". It`s certainly also true that a surface with great beading action will release a bunch of beads when disturbed, which will roll off in a "sheet". Maybe I should be calling the phenomenon on those dead cars "wetting" instead of "sheeting", with "sheeting" being the result of beads grouping together and no longer being able to stay on the surface.



On a little more techincal note, since we know that LSP`s are made up of various compounds, some of which are carriers, solvents, etc., which evaporate during the drying/curing process, it`s certainly conceivable that the "protectant" part of the product doesn`t cause (pronounced?) beading, but the carrier does, which dissipates eventually. Someone mentioned in the M21 thread that Ketch had explained this, perhaps someone can dig up that post. FWIW, nothing seems to bead or keep beading like Zaino.



Of course, since it isn`t a perfect world, both sides could be right in this "argument". It could be that sheeting is good for protecting against certain things, while beading is better for others. Think of Beta vs. VHS, Token Ring vs. Ethernet, Edison vs. Westinghouse...

[velobard]

Here`s another recent thread that discussed products that sheet rather than bead.



http://autopia.org/forum/showthread....ghlight=sheets



The OP was looking for something that would sheet water off with the frequent rain showers in Florida. There were several suggestions.



The sheeting action is one of the things I still like about NXT.

[Joshua312]

I live in west Michigan and while I sat inside at work I would wonder...what is my car going to look like this time since it`s raining. My beading was always very nice looking while it was raining. However if the sun came up or I looked at my car the next day I had brown almost "dirt" circles where some of the bigger beads were. It was almost like the water seating on my car was dirty and left it`s mark. Of course it would easily wash away, but the look of my freshly waxed car was ruined after any rain.



Im using #21 now and so far I have not had any problems after it has rained. Now I am not saying go out and buy #21 or another sheeting wax but (so far) it has been helping me keep my car looking cleaner, longer. As for the damage of the beads sitting on cars, who knows.



For me personally, Im going to vote water beads are no longer something I want.

[racingbeat]

my car is parked outside all the time. sometimes near the grounds sprinklers. About 5 months ago I started using the FK sprays and in that time I have noticed that the antistatic teflon like finish of 146 and 425 have allowed the water from rainfall and the sprinkler to run down the sides of the paint. The only beading that remains are on the horizontal sections. Before I would notice beading through out.

[SDLexus]

The guy who the OP mentioned was probably speaking of Meguiar`s. I`ve been to a couple of their detail days and Mike Phillips explained to us how the major auto paint manufacturers send them painted panels to check for compatibility with their products and if the paint is suitable for real world use. This is where Meguiar`s is obviously ahead of the game over other smaller operations; their R&D is thorough. Mike explained that all their sealants and waxes are designed to sheet water with the exception of one (I forget which, I think it`s in the consumer line) because of customer demand for a tight beading wax. Sheeting is a characteristic I`ve come to prefer in a sealant/wax. The only use beading actually serves is as an indicator if wax is still present, and one could use the "squeak test" for that after a wash.

[imported_memnuts]

The beading effects I notice on my vehicles is one of a variant of sheeting. Initially the rain beads tightly and then congregrates and actually create a sheeting effect as gravity forces these larger beads to roll off the surface. This clears the surface and only the most horizonal surfaces actually retains any fluid on itself after the precipitation ceases and my LSP (Zaino) works quite well to prevent water spotting of these few areas.



This illustrates the importance of a LSP creating "tight and tall" beading which approximates the individual beads and which in turn augments their congregration and dispensing off the paint.



Nothing more rewarding than seeing the beads combine and literally run off the paint.



Straight sheeting without any beading and run-off actually leads to the deposition of whatever in the rain (i.e acid) over the entire surface and remain on the paint after evaporation.

Is this acid still on the paint waiting for the next rain to go back into solution and perform its devilish deeds? :nixweiss

[Setec Astronomy]

Straight sheeting without any beading and run-off actually leads to the deposition of whatever in the rain (i.e acid) over the entire surface and remain on the paint after evaporation.

Is this acid still on the paint waiting for the next rain to go back into solution and perform its devilish deeds? :nixweiss

This explanation is at odds with the one I have heard that the acid concentration of the rain is very low (of course, otherwise it would kill all the plants, etc.), and that the damage to automotive finishes is from drops that collect, and then dry, becoming more and more concentrated as the water evaporates. That is why I believe acid rain damage to be more the pin-***** pits rather than the water drop shaped spots which are likely caused by...water drops (mineral deposits). When water sheets out on a dead surface, it winds up in a pretty thin layer, in comparison to the height of beads; I would bet there is less total volume of water on a largely horizontal dead surfacewhen wet than on a freshly waxed one with beading.

[imported_memnuts]

Research some articles on the death of the Amazon rain forest as an example of the effects pollution (acid rain) on it. "The browning of the Rain Forest`s canopy". This excludes the direct destruction by the cutting of our world`s largest air filter.



The point of a LSP is to protect against environmental assault (rain, snow, fog, bird deposits, etc.), which seems to be lost in most discussions here, more so than adding beauty. Fortunately, many LSP provide both features.



IMHO if a protectant can`t withstand (protect against) a simple rain and drying cycle, it is time to find one that does.



Which feature (sheeting verses beading-leading-to-sheeting) is best? :nixweiss

My 37 years of vehicle ownership and experiences with waxes (30 years) and sealants (7 years) with their beading effect has performed quite well guarding against "permanent" pollution damage to my finishes.

[wannafbody]

even products that sheet when washing tend to bead when raining. The main difference between many of the products is the size and shape of the bead. Personally I`m not sure the size and shape matter. What I like is when I wash the car and the dirt doesn`t stick and the soap and water are repelled. Based on my testing many products are fairly durable but one product seems pretty much bulletproof.