Lexus Discussion Thread ( Originally Hijack in MF thread)

[imported_Bence]

Those are ALL cosmetic. They`re still the same basic car.

Mainly true. For the manufacturer, the feature content is not that important. The main point of development is the adaptability of the platform. Yet the base is still the same.

[SilverLexus]

Nobody is saying you didn’t get your money’s worth with your Lexus, that there isn’t more value added to it, but that, from an engineering/mfg. perspective, it’s the same car. Maybe only those of us with an engineering/mfg. background get this.

I guess my definition of a "different car" includes one where substantial engineering and design changes have been made such as in the ES. Just sharing some common parts on the platform doesn`t mean much when the steering, performance, safety features, etc. are different.

By your definition, these are 3 different cars, but yet they are all called Buick LaCrosse. How is that different than Camry/ES?

Different trim levels on the Buick are quite different than completely different body panels and options. The Buick doesn`t have a different steering componentry.

Since I`ll be attending the LA Auto Show sometime this weekend, I`ll be happy to shoot some pics of the transmission/engine/suspension of the Camry and ES for everyone to compare.

Rumors are that the new LS and ES may be introduced at the Detroit and Chicago auto shows.

[SpoiledMan]

Oh crap, you need to use premium in a TL?

Nah, you don`t have to. It has a knock sensor and it retards the timing a bit and you motor on. In most cases you can`t even tell.

[Sherman8r44]

Oh crap, you need to use premium in a TL?

I *think* it`s just recommended, which means you`ll get full fuel economy and power with the premium. Also, the slgihtly higher power is due to higher compression ratios which sometimes need more octane.

[Sherman8r44]

I guess my definition of a "different car" includes one where substantial engineering and design changes have been made such as in the ES. Just sharing some common parts on the platform

That`s where we disagree. IMO The changes on the whole are very minor and cosmetic. There is a lot more than you might realize that goes into engineering a car, and the platform is almost entirely shared between the two cars.

[SilverLexus]

That`s where we disagree. IMO The changes on the whole are very minor and cosmetic. There is a lot more than you might realize that goes into engineering a car, and the platform is almost entirely shared between the two cars.

Two points:



1. Why do you believe that the platform alone is 90+% of the construction of the car?



2. If you drive the two cars you can see the quality difference in performance and luxury, even beyond the much better fit and finish of the ES.



Believe me when I say this. I have both cars sitting in the garage right now. My wife fights me to borrow the Lexus.

[pontman43]

Yeah, I`m brainwashed and I don`t want anyone else to be like me that`s all.







That`s where the higher HP numbers seem to come from between the two "makes" if you will. 240 HP Accords dyno pretty close to 260HP TL`s when the Accord uses premium gas.

They are two different size motors too. The Accord is a 3.0 and the TL is a 3.2. BTW the TL is now rated at 258hp :think: :nixweiss When it first came out it was rated at 260, right?

Oh ya and the 240hp Accords :up 6 spds make a big difference too.

[SpoiledMan]

Two points:



1. Why do you believe that the platform alone is 90+% of the construction of the car?

Cause that`s where the majority of the development money goes.

[SpoiledMan]

They are two different size motors too. The Accord is a 3.0 and the TL is a 3.2. BTW the TL is now rated at 258hp :think: :nixweiss When it first came out it was rated at 260, right?

Oh ya and the 240hp Accords :up 6 spds make a big difference too.

Pretty much the same motor with 200cc`s more displacement in the TL. Yeah, the Accord was advertised as 240 but that was with regular gas. The number goes decently north on premium. The TL wasn`t tweaked for the new regulations whereas the Accord was and that`s why you see the loss in HP on the TL and the Accord (I think) gained a few.

[Setec Astronomy]

Different trim levels on the Buick are quite different than completely different body panels and options. The Buick doesn`t have a different steering componentry.

Actually, that`s incorrect. The LaCrosse CXS has Magnasteer, which is an electrically- assisted unit, which is unavailable on the CX and CXL, which have traditional hydraulically-assisted steering. It`s also common for different trims in the same (GM) family to have trim-specific body features. For instance, my `90 Bonneville SSE has lower body skirts and cladding, as well as fog lights, spoiler, wheels, etc., all of which were unavailable on other Bonneville models, making it actually look different...but this is no news to anyone, compare a Firebird, Formula, and T/A. At least at one time, the T/A had a different hood (scoop), which, last time I checked was a body panel.

[pontman43]

Back to the towels... If autogeek`s towels are twice the size as SMP, then wouldn`t it cost around twice as much? I mean it is twice as much material. I think the original price from Autogeek is about right, now its a deal at Autogeek. But hey maybe this was a whole marketing thing for Autogeek, now its got me thinking that $6 is a deal. lol I mean a dollar for twice as much. This makes the towel seem like a deal, but still $6 for one towel. Everyone will be buying from autogeek now.

I`d hold off though, someone I know , is getting ready to release a pink carpet.

[imported_Bence]

When we talk about platforms, only the engine family counts. The 3.0, 3.2, 3.5 liters are just different displacement versions of the same J-series. Same goes for Toyota. 3MZ-FE is the 3.3, while 1MZ-FE is the 3.0.



Usually the shared percentage is around 60% at twins. I`ll check the exact number for you, Lee.

[Setec Astronomy]

Two points:



1. Why do you believe that the platform alone is 90+% of the construction of the car?



2. If you drive the two cars you can see the quality difference in performance and luxury, even beyond the much better fit and finish of the ES.

This is pointless...platform IS the construction of the car. Fit and finish is largely a QA/QC issue, not a design issue. Just like my towel example, one way of "making" different grade products is to "select" them. If you spend more time adjusting the panels to even up the gap, you wind up making the car cost more...and you get better gaps...it`s not a different design. That`s not to say that there aren`t design variables that contribute to better gaps...but who cares? That is really a measure of mfg./build consistency, not any real measure of whether the car is "better" or not. Likewise if you sand before painting, or put more coats on, you`re adding value but you`re not making it a "different" car, at least not to us engineering types.



PS If you blueprint an engine, did you make it a different engine? No, you just held the tolerances closer, and made it cost more, to reduce the variability from the design nominal. So a Lexus is a blueprinted Toyota...that still makes it a Toyota..with added value.

[imported_Bence]

Lee stated that his Lexus was built at the Tahara plant. This plant churns out almost exclusively Lexus models (khm, and their JDM Toyota counterparts such as Soarer/SC430, Celsior/LS430, Aristo/GS300/430, etc.). But Toyota build Lexus vehicles at its Tsutsumi plant, which is a so called mixed plant (produces multiple model lines at the same time). These model are the Prius, Camry, Premio and Allion and Lexus ES330. Just compare the quality of a Japanese Camry and an American! The result will be the same as in Lee`s garage.

[SpoiledMan]

In late `93 when the then new body Accords came out my EGF`s mother wanted one. While walking the dealer lot, you could tell by the gaps in the panels which ones were built here and which in Japan.