Lies, damn lies, marketing myths and folklore

[togwt]

I`ve found that some detailing myths are deliberately perpetuated by the industry and others are just common errors of judgment



Myths or marketing hype is usually based on some ‘truth’ to give it credibility, but biased to the advantage of the particular product. Or sometimes just plain misinformation or negative marketing to take advantage of the lack of knowledge by the general public





Leather needs oils to feed and condition it



Leather doesn’t need oils to feed it; it isn’t a living thing. Leather was removed from a dead animal, it’s then fat-liquored to preserve its oils and then sealed, and it also doesn`t need proteins, collagen, oils or creams to feed or condition it, even if they could permeate the various coverings.



If you keep polishing your car you’ll take all the paint off.



Most modern vehicle paint film systems thickness is approximately 6.0 Mil (0.006-inches) comprising a Primer coat of 2Mils, a Colour coat of 1-2Mils, and Clear coat 2-3Mils. Ultra violet protection (UV) migrates to the top of the clear coat to protect the paint system from the effects of (UV) radiation (photo degradation (colour fading) oxidation)

Using a medium abrasive polish and a rotary polisher will remove approximately 0. 1 Mil (3µ Microns) from the paint surface (typically 4 passes at 1500-1800 RPM) but there are many variables such as polish/compound and speed / pressure used that may affect the paint removed)



There comes a point when you must judge wither removing a scratch will compromise the clear coat and if so you’ll have to ‘live’ with the imperfection. If you have reservations about the amount of paint surface removed or the amount of paint coating remaining the use of a paint thickness gauge (PTG) is arbitrary



A sealant has no benefit to the paint ‘because’ there is a clear coat



This is baffling, as clear coat is a polyethylene paint but without colour pigmentation, its applied to provide the colour coat (base coat) with shine, if a clear coat did not need a protection applied, there would be no such thing as clear coat failure due to oxidation or any of a myriad of clear coat problems. To provide further improvements in appearance and durability the basecoat / clear coat systems were developed and introduced in the late 70’s. The base coat is comprised primarily of pigments held in place by a polymeric resin film (binder).



To clean really dirty wheels use an acid based cleaner



There is a thin line between effective cleaning and dangerous to use products; so before using any chemicals or solvents, carefully read all of the cautions and medical information on the products container and / or MSDS.



Always follow all of the manufacturer’s recommendations. Ensure that you wear eye protection and acid-proof gloves; this is mandatory. No matter how safe an acidic product is advertised, never run the risk of it splashing in your eye or permeating your skin.



Use a product that has a low acid concentration level i.e. Sulphuric, Phosphoric and Nitric acid. 10% or less) with as high a pH level as you can find for an acid, this constitutes a less aggressive product. A wheel cleaner containing a neutralized acid is far safer yet still very effective to use on most wheels. It will do a far better job than high alkaline cleaners, yet is nowhere near as harmful to the vehicle or yourself



If you dilute an acid it makes it less harmful



Water is amphoteric and can act as an acid or as a base; an aqueous solution is a solution in which the solvent is water. Hydration leaves the non-water component intact. To dilute an acid requires a buffering agent, which adjusts the pH of a solution. The function of a buffering agent is to drive an acidic or basic solution to a certain pH state and prevent a change in this pH. Buffering agents have variable properties -- some are more soluble than others; some are acidic while others are basic.



Low pH acidic and high pH alkaline cleaners should be used with proper skin protection and in plenty of fresh air ventilation. Also proper health precautions should be taken (gloves, respirator, etc)



Using dawn will destroy rubber trim and paint



I would not recommend using a harsh dishwashing detergent such as Dawn on a regular basis, as they contain a degreaser, although most of them are approx pH 8.0 the other ingredients will tend to emulsify, breakdown and leach out oils found in rubber moulding, trim and the paint system, which if used constantly will cause the plasticizers to dry out and oxidize, causing them to lose their flexibility.



The DuPont Teflon® PTFE products that are used in the formulation of our products, add a distinctive performance benefit to the products



Teflon® will help ‘spread ability’ (but then so do silicone oils) it does nothing for durability because of its required application method-although Teflon® is an exceptional product when used as intended; it provides no benefit in a wax or polish. Unless Teflon® is applied at 700.0F, plus the use of a dissolving chemical C8, it is not a viable ingredient, and is 100 percent useless in protecting the paint`s finish.



The larger the % of Carnauba wax the better the wax



Misinformation propagates the myth that increasing the Carnauba content of a wax will greatly improve the wax. This is only very marginally true at best; most carnaubas advertised with 50% or more Carnauba wax content is truly advertising a weight, not a volume. 30% by volume is about 50% by weight is about the maximum content (approx 35% Carnauba by volume makes it almost impossible to add/remove) that’s why you never can truly assess the amount of Carnauba in a manufactured wax unless the manufacturer specifically lists its content percentage by weight or volume.



Silicone / Petroleum distillates are harmful to paint



Silicone (Siloxane) oils - are polymers that include silicon together with carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and sometimes other chemical elements, which provide an excellent lubricant that when used as a carrier system in polishes and waxes that makes them easier to apply and remove When used in paints and other coatings it ensures an even flow through a spray nozzle ensuring an even product distribution. It not silicone that you need worry about, just the `type` (what it’s formulated with) you need to be aware of. Silicone oils provide an excellent lubricant that when used as a carrier system in polishes and waxes that makes them easier to apply and remove When used in paints and other coatings it ensures an even flow through a spray nozzle ensuring an even product distribution.





More soap bubbles in a wash will get things cleaner



Back when laundry was done with soap flakes, suds level was an indicator of cleaning performance. So, many people today think that a good rich level of suds is necessary for clean laundry. However, this is no longer true. Today`s detergents are formulated to have any suds level desired without affecting cleaning performance. "They make the removal of dirt easier by reducing the surface tension between the water and the paint surface.



In reality suds (a chemical foaming agent or coconut oil) do absolutely nothing to clean, they are simply a structure that a portion of the solution had taken due to being mixed with air. The amount of foaming produced has nothing to do with its cleaning efficiency, although it does provide a means of encapsulation as well as acting a cushion between the paint surfaces and cleaning tool (although a surfactant is much better at this)



All purpose cleaners (APC) will remove any soil / stain



Classifying stains-



Organic stains- these include proteins and fats, body oils, mould yeast, bacteria, bugs and carbohydrates. Most of the stains found in the vehicle interior are of an organic nature and require an alkaline type cleaner. Some organic stains (i.e. blood, vomit, urine) should be removed with an enzyme type cleaner and a disinfectant applied to the area



Non-Organic stains- mostly found on the exterior of the vehicle, hard water scale (calcium) lime deposits, Road tar, grease and oil film, and require an acidic type cleaner.



Petroleum soils - substances that do not contain water, nor are they miscible, these soil types include, motor oils, and crease and road tar, and require a solvent type cleaner.



Stain Types-



Water Soluble Stains- These stains can be dissolved in cool water or loosened with water based cleaner, coffee; soft drinks, cocoa and chocolate are good examples.



Oil soluble stains- These are stains that are comprised of oily or greasy substances, which include cooking, oil from fried foods and suntan oil.



Combination Stains- These stains contain both water based and oil-soluble properties. Cleaning these stains require treatment with a petroleum solvent followed by water based cleaning solution.



Unidentifiable Stains- Sometimes stains cannot be identified. Treat these stains like a combination stain. Clean with a petroleum solvent followed by water based cleaner.



As you can see from the above list the so-called ‘all purpose cleaner’ (APC) cannot remove all stains, it’s better to use a specific stain remover than to compromise. Always select a chemical / cleaner that are biodegradable, environmentally friendly and safe to use by observing any precautions recommended so that they won’t harm you, your vehicle or the environment



A hard paint surface resists scratches



Hard and soft are both relative terms; you can scratch the hard surface of a vehicles paint with a soft towel by the application of enough pressure. Both pressure and mechanical stress are defined as force per unit area. These two forces are the subject of Newton`s third law of motion; the law of reciprocal actions [: to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction]





How can a hard clear coat be so easily scratched? Force acts through a body that has a surface area; if the surface area is really small while maintaining an equal force, the pressure becomes astronomical and the object under pressure capable of penetrating the surface of an otherwise tough material. That’s why a micro fine thread that is twice as fine as silk and a 100 times finer than a human hair, in an otherwise soft towel will scratch your paint. And the same reason a mosquito can penetrate a rhino hide with its proboscis (stinger).



A ‘Touch less’ or Tunnel car wash must be a safe way to clean your vehicle



Most so called ‘Touch less’ car washes today use a low pH acid as a first step, an alkaline to neutralize it and then high pressure water to wash cars. Hand washing is MUCH preferred, do not use an automated car wash period, touch less or not, there are a variety of reasons:



Local by-laws require car washes to re-claim or recycle water. This means they have two choices.



They can collect the water in tanks and pay to truck it away to a recycling centre or they can filter and then recycle the water (dependant on how often the filters are cleaned /changed) will affect how much dirt content there is. Recycled meaning re-use the same water, which may include any road dirt/grit that is not filtered out is used to high-pressure (1,000PSI) wash your vehicle (somewhat similar to sandblasting) the final rinse is usually twice-filtered re-cycled water, this is to give the appearance of a clean surface on the vehicle.



To help clean the recycled water they use a chemical like Presidium Orthophosphate (TSP) and have the chemical formula Na3PO4. It is a highly water-soluble ionic salt. Solutions of it dissolved in water have a high alkaline pH; this does a great job stripping your wax / sealant. TSP is generally not good for cleaning vehicles because it can corrode metal.



Washing my vehicle in my driveway is OK



Disposal of Aqueous Solutions - one should never assume that aqueous solutions can be disposed of down the drain. Your local water treatment authority or publicly owned treatment works will have information on treatment and disposal of these cleaners. Adjustment of pH and dilution are usually required before disposal to a drain Always comply with current water usage and disposal regulations / water usage restrictions



What’s the best wax?



Is there a best? In my opinion- No! While it’s true many of the chemicals used in the formulation of car care products are the same (or at least very similar) Chemists will forever be trying to make the perfect wax for cars, boats, or aircraft to protect us from the harsh climates on the surface of this little blue planet. And these chemists are driven by desire and need and the possibilities are endless as new compounds are adding to existing ones to bring up whole new blending ideas, some will revolutionize our industry but most will simply be duds. Some will be hyped even though they do not really solve a problem or fix a need. Never the less, the race goes on to find the best and we should be thinking about what is in that product before we put it on a car, boat, aircraft or prize possession.



Having used a variety of different products, at various cost levels, I can tell one from another and field testing shows that not all have the durability either, some simply outperform others in many categories and react differently when applied to different paint types, paint hardness, colour, or varied paint surface conditions.



Ultimately the best wax or sealant will prove to be the one that best meets its user`s objectives. If a product is not working for you experiment until you find one that’s suitable for your needs. There is no one product that can produce all of the properties for an optically perfect shine, however; for high surface gloss and surface reflectance-a polymer sealant, which also provides durability. Detailing enthusiasts consider shine as only one attribute of a protective wax,sealant or coating. They are equally concerned with; ease of application, resistance to abrasion, atmospheric contamination and weathering.



Using heat, dry ice or suction will pop out a dent



The Paintless Dent Repair PDR) process is done by using many different tools to work the dent back out. Dents are removed and generally you cannot notice where the original dent was. This process requires a lot of training, practice, patience and skill, as well as a keen eye.



Carnauba wax contains natural UV absorbers



Carnauba waxes, contrary to popular belief and / or marketing do not contain natural UV protection; the oils (usually silicone in most products) make it very difficult to add the UV inhibitors. Polymers (acrylics, etc) resist UV degradation very well due to their structure, they are somewhat immune and absorb very little ultra violet radiation, and hence UV energy does not damage them



Detailer`s clay bar it pulls the impurity out of the paint.



Detailer’s clay exfoliates bonded surface contaminants by shearing ( a popular misconception - it does not pull or extract contaminants from a paint surface, if this was the case there would be no need for it to be abrasive) it is then encapsulated by the clay resin. These abrasives are extremely small with an average particle size of 1- µ (micron) dependent on the aggressiveness required, mixed in with a powdered synthetic detergent.



Paints require oils to feed / nourish them



This is based upon oil-based paint, nitrocellulose lacquer or enamel and older technology paints on classic vehicles that required oils to keep them from becoming too brittle and cracking, water-based high solid/low solvent and urethane paints only require protection

Covered leather upholstery requires regular conditioning



As the top surface has polyurethane finish over pigmented finished leather, creams, oils or conditioners should not be used. Reminder; you are dealing with the finished surface coating and not with the leather itself.



I use Simple Green and it never hurt my aluminium wheels



It oxidizes aluminium on contact and damages clear from my experiences, it has a pH 9.3 and contains undiluted 2-butoxyethanol (Butyl Cellosolve) – see MSDS (Safe alternative - Simple Green. Pro HD conforms to both Boeing D6-17487P spec for general aircraft exterior cleaning and Pratt & Whitney PWA 36604 Rev C specifications for aircraft engine cleaning. It has been tested, thoroughly and has proven to be non-corrosive to aluminium.



A Lifetime Paint Protection



There is no polymer, synthetic or natural wax, or after-market product available that can provide a two, five year or lifetime protection to a paint film surface; read the fine print in the contract offered by car dealerships.





Water beading means my paint is protected



Nearly all wax and sealant products exhibit water beading or sheeting initially (in fact so does a clean paint surface without an applied protection) this is due solely to surface tension.



Once the protection breaks down (abrasion from water, road dirt/grime and other airborne pollutants) it will cause a reduction in the surface tension and the beading will revert to its former level



Abrasives require heat to break-down



Kinetic friction induced heat is an often misunderstood concept of polishing / compounding; abrasives require friction to breakdown, not heat; heat is just a resultant of friction between two surfaces.



Kerosene (cleaning) Baby Oil (for rubber seals) Shoe Polish (for leather upholstery)



Old school (technology) products that were use before the advent of specialised products specifically formulated for automobiles.

As materials and production methods that are used change; we need to adapt our product usage and application methodologies to change with them

[Bill D]

Myths or marketing hype is usually based on some ‘truth’ to give it credibility, but biased to the advantage of the particular product. Or sometimes just plain misinformation or negative marketing to take advantage of the lack of knowledge by the general public

That is "an evil" of this particular industry. There`s no formal,regulatory body to keep claims in check, so all kinds can be made.

[Accumulator]

TOGWT- Heh heh, a few of those might be conventional wisdom (gee, shoulda put that in scare-quotes, huh? ) here at Autopia too.

[Junebug]

I wouldn`t call Dawn "harsh" - didn`t you see them washing the oil off the baby ducks after that oil spill? My own doctor told my teenage daughter that it was safe to wash her face at night with Dawn and then use a 50-50 mix of Listerine and water to pat down the bumps afterward. Say what you will, but her acne cleared up. And she got that oily skin from me, I had to go to a dermatologist as a kid! I remember using lava soap to wash my face, yeah, it was that bad. Fortunitely hers wasn`t that extreme, must have got some of her mom`s dry skin in the gene pool.



As a car wash, sure thing - if I intend on buffing it afterwards. YMMV

[mikenap]

Ugh, I remember going rounds with someone on a car forum who kept recommending Simple Green as a wheel cleaner. He couldn`t understand that just because it didn`t hurt HIS painted wheels, it could damage bare aluminum and that he should stop telling everyone else it was a safe wheel cleaner. After a while, I just gave up.:furious:

[C. Charles Hahn]

Ugh, I remember going rounds with someone on a car forum who kept recommending Simple Green as a wheel cleaner. He couldn`t understand that just because it didn`t hurt HIS painted wheels, it could damage bare aluminum and that he should stop telling everyone else it was a safe wheel cleaner. After a while, I just gave up.:furious:

I`ve stopped posting on "car forums" for exactly that reason.... too many idiots that want to sit and argue about how they know better than industry professionals and don`t need to listen.

[togwt]

I`ve stopped posting on "car forums" for exactly that reason.... too many idiots that want to sit and argue about how they know better than industry professionals and don`t need to listen.

I`ve posted a quote from the mfg (Simple Green) stating that their product was detrimental to aluminium parts and some still chose to ignore it.



"There are non so blind, as those who won`t see and non so deaf as those that won`t hear" Anon

[mikenap]

I`ve stopped posting on "car forums" for exactly that reason.... too many idiots that want to sit and argue about how they know better than industry professionals and don`t need to listen.

Yup. Just ask Marc Harris about his whole "Magic Eraser on leather" episode. It was funny for a minute, but went downhill pretty fast.

[Bill D]

I`ve stopped posting on "car forums"

Doing that is how I originally found Autopia.

[David Fermani]

Great info Jon. Magic Eraser, Woolite, Auto UV protection (in general) and SRC/Menzerna polishes would be a good addition too.

[Ron Ketcham]

I have been watching this thread since it was posted.

I am 98% in agreement with what he posted, really.

What part I am not in agreement with has to do with what I experienced working with the paint/trim engineers of various auto manufacturers, their findings.

That said, it is very good, much to the actual point.

Anyone who has followed me on these internet forums for that past 15 years know that I have always challenged the "marketing" of companies vs known "chemical facts".

Very well presented, and while there are some references to "brands" (some which I would differ with), the basic information is very much on the money.

Grumpy

[autoaesthetica]

Can I get an addition of the word "nano" to this thread?





nano being a size indicator and that really much anything made of a siloxane is considered by size to be "nano"



LOL everything i type it like say outloud "O00o0o0o0o NANOO 0oo0oo"

[togwt]

Can I get an addition of the word "nano" to this thread?





nano being a size indicator and that really much anything made of a siloxane is considered by size to be "nano"



LOL everything i type it like say outloud "O00o0o0o0o NANOO 0oo0oo"

What is Nanotechnology as it relates to Detailing?



The science of nanotechnology; the creation, organization, or manipulation of materials, devices, or systems at the nanometre level Nanotechnology, Nano particles or Nano structures, exactly what are they and how do they relate to detailing?



These coatings are based around super siloxanes, and not true nanotube/tubule technology. This would cause a serious health concern for all of those - not to mention be ridiculously expensive. The context that “nano" (as related to detailing) is only as a relative size indicator merely to identify a siloxane/polymer.



They are sub micron particles that form a clear thin film of tightly packed nano particles forming an extension of the surface. The particles are up to a 1000 times denser which makes for an ultra durable hard wearing surface. Technically most detailing product particulates are not nano metre in size, although they are extremely small, as the term ‘nano’ adequately describes.



The significance of a nano-coating is its micro sized particles that can form a very tight bond with the surface of most materials; including glass, paint, plastic, rubber, aluminium, chrome, stainless steel and fabrics. These materials will have surface imperfections i.e. peaks and valleys, micro-fissures when viewed under high magnification. These undulations allow a nano-coating polymer to form a tight molecular bond (much like a printer’s powdered ink when poured over paper that has writing indentations on it) with the surface it’s applied to.