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  1. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Ketcham
    Explain? All I was attempting to do was to point out that most of those who talk about this subject of solvents, are usually leaving out the basics when it comes to what and why?


    Apologies, I misinterpreted. Lets forget generalisations and focus:



    Is there real world data showing isopropanol to actually cause significant swelling or other effects?



    You have noted the tests that companies do but gave no indication of how IPA fared in these tests. How does it compare relative to other (stronger by my assertion) solvents which are commonly used on paint work?

  2. #17

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    Since IPA evaporates so quickly, according to all that I read, does NO damage, other than break down waxes, etc.

    It is used extensively by ports to accelerate moisture entrapped in clears that have transit wrap on them where moisture gets underneath and "clouds" the clear, for years. IPA, due to it`s chemical makeup, works as a "drying agent" for the removal of moisture from paint films.

    The one, 12 page test data I was able to keep, is from Chrysler, but deals with enviormental damanging chemicals and UV exposure.

    It shows how "water" and "soap" enters the paint film, which paint systems by DuPont, BASF and PPG are most resistant, etc.

    Also addresses various acids in the enviorment, UV exposure, uses xeon test chambers exporsure, heat, addresses crock marring, loss of gloss, etc.

    According to the test results, using the OEM paint systems of the time of the three, plus one PPG refinish material, all absorbed some water into the paint film.

    It would be reasoned that IPA, since most percentages contain an amount of water, that the IPA entered as well.

    No damage from such exposure to the IPA percentage is shown.

    That said, the test results I have, did not address the use of any other solvents, since that was not the focus of the test protocal.

    The test was to look at how the Master Shield Paint Sealant performed and it did excellent, which is why Chrysler continues to market it under their brand.

    It does contains a percentage of hydrocarbon solvents as the cleaners and carriers.

    That`s as far as it went, I just have to go from memory regarding the test papers (keep in mind, I am old and these reads took place over 10 to 6 years ago) I was able to read from the paint companies and vehicle manufacturers paint engineers, and can not recall any damage resulting from the normal "wipe on, wipe off" of IPA, unlike clorinated and some aromatic`s, alaphatic`s.
    "Logic dictates I have been at this detailing thing way too many years!":wink1:

  3. #18

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    Thanks Ron. You are basically holding the same view as me but it is good to know I am not alone.



    Perhaps TOGWT might chime in here because he has made some pretty definitive statements about IPA.



    For less dense (soft) clear coat, the lower rate of isopropyl alcohol dilution (1:10) is recommended; conversely denser (hard) clear coats should use a higher dilution (1:25); as you increase the dilution rate of isopropyl alcohol its paint softening effect drops exponentially.


    A recommended isopropyl alcohol (IPA) dilution of 1:10-25 (10-25%) in distilled water as a ‘safe’ surface wipedown cleaning solution.


    For instance, who is making these recommendations and on what grounds? From where has the exponential softening relationship with regards to dilution come? Are these based on something rigorous or is this just restatement of detailing myth?

  4. #19
    Keeper of the beautiful Jean-Claude's Avatar
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    Excellent piece Jon.
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  5. #20
    The Old Grey Whistle Test togwt's Avatar
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    Thank you...
    What gets overlooked too often is that one must be a student before becoming a teacher.

  6. #21

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    Jon, first, Happy Turkey Day this week!


    Regarding `this subject, but not really, however along the same "line", regarding the way that those who chose to not think and address what they are "really dealing" with regarding a modern paint finish and "how difficult a particular color" is to deal with. Some many go on and on about a "color" of a "brand" of vehicle has a "color" that creates a concern for them when attempting to do a correct to imperfections on such vehicles.


    I asked a very simple "think about it" question in my response.`


    Simply, it is this.`


    The vehicle, no matter what brand, no matter what "color", today in 99% of the vehicles, are "clear coated".`


    I.E., they are not placing their whatever buffer or selected product on the "color", but on the "clear coat" of the vehicle`s finish.


    The "base coat" that is "under the clear coat" provides the "color" and depending on the light "refraction" will high light any imperfections.


    Why is it that most can not understand and accept this most basic of today`s paint tech regarding the paint systems used today?


    Is it that they can not grasp the facts of the paint systems used today, that they refuse to accept the facts of such?


    Worked at all levels of the paint tech with 9 of the leading vehicle manufacturers in the WORLD `and their paint suppliers for longer than most are alive today, it is a thing that I just don`t get.`


    Is it that these people depend on sources that only agree with their limited knowledge or they "buy" into the marketing of products advertising, to their "peers", who in reality have no more knowledge than them but with enough posts, gain a following?


    Jump in here, Jon, and PiPUK, as it seems we are the only ones who have enough chemical and real years of experience to continue to attempt to provide some true, factual education on such matters.
    "Logic dictates I have been at this detailing thing way too many years!":wink1:

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by PiPUK



    Thanks Ron. You are basically holding the same view as me but it is good to know I am not alone.


    Perhaps TOGWT might chime in here because he has made some pretty definitive statements about IPA.






    For instance, who is making these recommendations and on what grounds? From where has the exponential softening relationship with regards to dilution come? Are these based on something rigorous or is this just restatement of detailing myth?

    I too would like to see TOGWTs response.
    PMS Adjuster

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  8. #23
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    Firstly, thanks to all of you who have contributed to this thread - I have just read and then re-read all of it, and there is certainly a lot of information to absorb, especially for someone who is not well versed in chemistry.


    `


    One item I would really like some clarity on pertains to the use of tar removers. The MSDS for Autofiness Oblitarate (about the only tar remover available to me over here in South Africa) shows the following `ingredients`


    `
    LOW BOILING POINT HYDROGEN TREATED NAPHTHA - NAPHTHA (PETROLEUM),`
    HYDRODESULPHURIZED HEAVY 70-90%
    EINECS: 265-185-4 CAS: 64742-82-1`
    [-] R10; [N] R51/53; [Xn] R65
    • 2-BUTOXYETHANOL 1-10%
    EINECS: 203-905-0 CAS: 111-76-2`
    [Xn] R20/21/22; [Xi] R36/38
    • XYLENE 10-30%
    EINECS: 215-535-7 CAS: 1330-20-7`
    [-] R10; [Xn] R20/21; [Xi] R38
    `
    These items were mentioned by the OP as being those that can lead to paint swelling.
    `
    Does this then mean that using this tar remover is bad for the paint?
    `
    If it is, then what would you guys (who seem to understand the effects of all of these chemicals a lot more than the average Joe) recommend for the removal of tar deposits.

  9. #24
    The Old Grey Whistle Test togwt's Avatar
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    Many solvents contain chemicals that on their own (undiluted) may cause damage to paint, however reading the MSDS and note the % used


    `


    Hydrodesulphhurized is a catalyst used to remove sulfur from refined petrochemicals (in this case Naphtha)`so nothing in this product should harm paint (but do not allow extended dwell time)


    `


    As I have stated previously; chemical formulations use diluted chemicals and / or buffers and sometimes catalyst to lessen the effects of `strong` chemicals`, which cited on their own could cause damage, but you must consider any other additional`chemicals used in the formulation of a product
    What gets overlooked too often is that one must be a student before becoming a teacher.

  10. #25
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    Thanks for the reply. Makes a whole more sense to me now.

  11. #26

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    I don`t care to use any product with a butyl component, has to do with some things we found years ago. However the one component, xylene, at 30% is a real concern. In the states, any solvent blend using that high of percentage, must carry a strong health warning, as it is very toxic, by inhalation, skin absorbtion, etc.
    "Logic dictates I have been at this detailing thing way too many years!":wink1:

  12. #27
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    Ron .. how is xylene on clear?`` I think I read somewhere before you posted it wasn`t too clear friendly.
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  13. #28

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    There is a "big" difference" between any solvent "used" in a clear or any other paint and a higher percentage being applied directly to the "cured" paint surface.`


    Let`s go back to early paint systems-lacquer thinner was used to "reduce" the solid content, however, place the pure lacquer thinner on a lacquer cured finish and what happens to the "finish"?


    Consider that and then think about it. The answer is there, plus the toxic values of xylene to the human body, inhalation, contact, absorbing into body tissues, etc.
    "Logic dictates I have been at this detailing thing way too many years!":wink1:

  14. #29
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    So if both Xylene and the Butyl component contained in this tar remover are bad for the clear coat, then what would you guys recommend to be used to remove tar spots from OEM clear coated vehicles?

  15. #30

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    Least expensive, very effective, mineral spirits. buy by the quart at any hardware or paint supply store.
    "Logic dictates I have been at this detailing thing way too many years!":wink1:

 

 
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