Should I use (Dawn) to wash my paint?

[imported_PiPUK]

Dish washing detergents usually contain a sheeting agent (Alcohol alkoxylate or sodium) or other additive to avoid water spotting; along with emollients or moisturizers; these work by forming a thin protective coating on the surface of the dishes or glassware and also to protect the skin to prevent any loss of moisture, this will leave a film on the paint surface, which may negatively affect .product cross-linking / bonding and the emollients will also negatively affect the surface reflectivity (Gloss) Dawn specifically uses Ethyl Alcohol (Ethanol) as its main cleaning agent

I have to respond to this because you posted something very similar on detailing world (I am not a contributor there). Yes, many detergents contain agents which inhibit water spotting. Unfortunately alcohol alkoxylates don`t really fall into this category. Sodium - what? Sodium ions? Sodium ions (counter ions) are in practically everything that has water in it and are most definitely not sheeting agents.



Many of the sorts of agents you refer to will specifically increase gloss, not decrease. It is agents like alcohol ethoxylates which will decrease gloss, primarily due to failure to form uniform films. In fact you will find that many car wash products contain the gloss/sheeting type agents you refer to - it is far from unique to dish washing liquids.

The MSDS indicates that this product contains Sodium laureth sulphate a foaming agent, Dodecylbenzene sulphonic acid and sodium hydroxide; these salt crystals could be mildly abrasive when they `come out` of the compound later and will then permeate the pant surface.

That is pure conjecture with regards to the abrasive character. SLES is ubiquitous in shampoos and you will find it in many vehicle cleaning products and I believe it is actually used in Car pro eraser so you cannot accuse it of being abrasive there. DDBSA and NaOH react to give you one of the most important cleaning surfactants out there - a sulphonate. Lets look at this logically. You maybe use 200:1 dilution, the wash soaps are rarely above 30% active so that basically means about 0.1% activity in your bucket. Now lets look at something like Iron-X - it is something like 30% active and you apply it neat. It is probably 300x more `active` and it is little more than a salt. So, if your suggestion was correct about washing up liquid, Iron-X and similar should surely be like sandpaper. Only they are not.



In solution, all of these components are ions. They are sub nano and of no concern from an abrasive perspective. Taking DDBSA and similar surfactants - do you know what happens when they dry out? They do not dry into crystals, they dry into a sticky mess. Long before you get crystals, you will get a sticky residue and you won`t be buffing it because your cloth will stick. They don`t dry out in the way NaCl does from seawater! But the concentration is of paramount importance here. With the high dilutions used for hand wash product there is simply so little material present that what you are saying is scaremongering. By all means make the argument with other products, have a fight about De-ironiser and the manufacturer suggesting safety about it drying in situ but enough with it on hand washing products.

[Ron Ketcham]

Floyd often used the term, "cold water sulphonated system" to describe a safe car wash product.

Base contained "coconut oil" (let`s keep it simple here), and had excellent "dirt" cleaning, did not leave a "film" of sodium on the surface following rinsing.

Same as the Detail Wash my old company still produces for several auto manufacturers.

Regarding the "salts", have had, while at both companies, guys say they wanted it "thicker" as that was better.

Just told them to desolve some table salt in hot water and mix it into the undiluted car wash product, it would "thicken" right up--which it did.

Then they would complain about how the modifcation left a "film" on the vehicle after rinsing.

LOL!

[Accumulator]

Just a quick post to say I`m enjoying this discussion...

[Ron Ketcham]

In the "normal" sense of the word, "salt is a corrosive" in regards to most surfaces. It does some "cleaning" alright, it sort of, "eats" things away, but that is another subject for another time

[jfelbab]

I`ve done a few DAWN washes in my day and I can`t every recall thinking "Wow that DAWN really made my car shinier." Quite the contrary, it left every car I`ve ever used it on rather dull looking. Duller than clean paint would be expected to look and likely covered with a film as suggested by TOGWT. I always marked that up to hand moisturizers in DAWN but never did any research to confirm this. I believe DAWN will strip a lot of sealants and most waxes but I don`t believe for a minute that it leaves the car clean or ready for another LSP. There is clearly something on the paint after a DAWN wash, IME.



As I learned a bit more, I moved to other cleaners/degreasers to remove previous wax/sealants and never looked back.

[Bill D]

I just did a detail this weekend on a white SL, used the ABC wash process and wow,is the paint sterile! It was super bright before I even polished it and it was kinda dingy before. ABC all the way for me if I have it..

[Ron Ketcham]

I just did a detail this weekend on a white SL, used the ABC wash process and wow,is the paint sterile! It was super bright before I even polished it and it was kinda dingy before. ABC all the way for me if I have it..

That`s what it does, something that no clay, no "special towel", no "one step"product, can do. Removes any deep imbedded soil from the pores of the paint, neutralizes any acids and such that are down below the surface of the paint system as well as on the surface, safely removes ferrous (iron particles) and leaves the paint, chemically, as it was when it left the bake oven at the assembly plant.

[Bill D]

The car didn`t need claying which was a super time saver too

[Accumulator]

The car didn`t need claying which was a super time saver too

Quite possibly needed less correction too, as compared to had you used another method to decontaminate (gee, should I put that in scare-quotes? :chuckle: ).

[togwt]

A little off main topic, but -



[That`s what it does, something that no clay, no "special towel", no "one step"product, can do]



Be cognizant that there are two types of paint contamination, above surface and below surface. Before the advent of detailer’s clay it was a common practice to remove paint-overspray with a one-sided razor blade and a surface lubricant or by polishing the surface with a compound / polish and a wool pad.



a) Detailer`s clay - removes paint surface contaminants i.e. it abrades the top section of an iron particle, leaving what is below the paint surface to remain. Once water and heat (reactivity) is added the below surface particulates act as a conduit and the corrosion process is started.



b) Paint decontamination systems - were developed as a method of removing ferrous contamination beyond what can be removed by washing or claying alone. The only way to completely remove sintered (heat fused) ferrous iron particles is with a dedicated decontamination system that opens up the paint`s micro pores to release iron particles and to neutralize the caustic compounds that have developed as a result of the particle. In one step, you can eliminate both the cause and its effects. Ongoing damage is immediately stopped and future damage is prevented by completely removing the ferrous particles.

[togwt]

[I have to respond to this because you posted something very similar on detailing world (I am not a contributor there)]



If I didn`t know better that sounds like the definition of stalking to me

[pwaug]

Does anyone know if the Finish Kare system is relabled ABC ? Finish Kare Paint Decontamination System, auto paint cleaning system, de-contamination solution

[Ron Ketcham]

I know. I am the guy that put together the Finish Kare system from products we had on the shelf when I was Finish Kare`s Sales Manager. The refusal of the owner to make changes in the products to meet eviromental and health safety concerns, as well as to be more "friendly" to OEM paints was one of the reasons I left the company after over 10 years.

The ValuGard ABC system was developed in part by the time I joined Automotive International, just needed some tweaking and such. Made the changes, took the system to the vehicle manufactuers and their paint suppliers, got them to test the system, they approved it, and now it is the most recommended and required for use system in the world.

The Finish Kare system uses keosene in the 1119, uses un-inhibited sulfuric in the 883, etc, so it is not ground water or user friendly.

[pwaug]

Thanks Ron!!!