Video: Long Throw Polisher Sound Comparison

[GearHead_1]

Todd, you know I respect your opinion. You are one of those people whose knowledge, opinion, practice and results I admire. That said, I`m pretty simple minded and while I`m no engineer have a good understanding of most things mechanical. So... forgive me if these comments run counter to yours as I`m not trying to be confrontational. I just feel that the free wheeling test assumes too much.

I don`t believe that spinning freely in the air is an accurate predictor of how the machine will work under an actual load. There are far too many other factors that help to determine whether the machine operates smoothly under a load, not simply the pad or a pad weighted with polish.

The motor itself, gear alignment and depth of engagement, bearings and their side or end load, tolerances and clearances that change under heat and pressure, the weight of the pad etc are all factors to be considered. These can all come into to play under real world use conditions. The way gears mesh under a load will always be somewhat different than when free wheeling. While the machine may operate smoothly in the air, I do not believe this is the sole or necessarily the best indicator of how it will perform while in use. I do however believe it`s a good place to start. Yeah, my 2 cents are probably only worth .5 cents. Once again, I realize that vibration wasn`t the emphasis of this test. Stepping down from my soap box.

[edb]

I would also like to see the test with the other 15`s as well just for more across the board comparison. I do apreciate the work you guys did put in though.

[Todd@RUPES]

Todd, you know I respect your opinion. You are one of those people whose knowledge, opinion, practice and results I admire. That said, I`m pretty simple minded and while I`m no engineer have a good understanding of most things mechanical. So... forgive me if these comments run counter to yours as I`m not trying to be confrontational. I just feel that the free wheeling test assumes too much

My purpose originally in this thread was to explain to you why the pad balance appeared off on the RUPES BigFoot, a tool that is well reputed for it`s amazing balance given the ground-breaking stroke lengths the engineers were able to pioneer. The reason for the wobble was because the tall pad was not warmed up and had been resting on the edge. This behavior is certainly not par for anybody who uses the RUPES` system.

I don`t believe that spinning freely in the air is an accurate predictor of how the machine will work under an actual load.

I agree and disagree. When it comes to predicting the vibration inherent to the system, I have been told by many mechanical engineers including the team at RUPES, the product lead engineer of RUPES, and the former owner of Cyclo (a mechanical engineer from Harvard) that the most accurate measurement of system vibration is in free air. When it comes to the total experience, vibration is just one part of it (although very valuable part).

There are far too many other factors that help to determine whether the machine operates smoothly under a load, not simply the pad or a pad weighted with polish.

I am not sure if I am just not being clear when I attempted to differentiate between system vibration and user experience, and am growing frustrated at my own inability to explain this clearly.

Yes, there are many factors that add into the tool operating "smoothly." The smooth feel of the tool is something user will experience and thus I have attempted to separate this from system vibration by calling it the user experience. The particular pad`s ability to absorb frequency (vibration), load, panel type, expectation, will all effect what the user feels. Even slight differences in nerve allocation and type will have an impact as well are all calibrated differently.

However, there when testing system vibration and the accuracy of the counter weight`s ability to cancel out vibration on both the x and y axis, the best test is to operate the tool in free air.

It is much more difficult to make the system operate with near-zero vibration in free air than it is when the tool is enjoying the dampening benefits of a foam pad. With orbital tools there is a direct correlation between the two, although as you noted below, many other factors play into what the user experiences.

I further agree with everybody who has stated that comparisons should be done with the tool on the paint, in real-world conditions. After all the user is going to be concerned with the user experience. The engineers and tool manufacturers are going to be more focused on things like tool and system vibration. I am only attempting to use what I have learned to draw the parallel between the two.

The motor itself, gear alignment and depth of engagement, bearings and their side or end load, tolerances and clearances that change under heat and pressure, the weight of the pad etc are all factors to be considered. These can all come into to play under real world use conditions. The way gears mesh under a load will always be somewhat different than when free wheeling.

Agreed.

While the machine may operate smoothly in the air, I do not believe this is the sole or necessarily the best indicator of how it will perform while in use.

Again, I hope it is clear that I agree (for the most part). Placing load on the tool, heating up various parts (which expand at different rates), etc is all going to play a valuable role in how the tool operates. This is why I have attempted to clarify my differentiation between user experience (smooth running in the the real world) and vibration (load forces on the tool as a factor of imbalance in the rotating assembly ).

I do however believe it`s a good place to start. Yeah, my 2 cents are probably only worth .5 cents. Stepping down from my soap box.

According to the engineers that I have had exhausting conversations with in an attempt to better my education and understanding of such principles, it absolutely the best place to start for a number of reasons.

However, at this point I have done my absolute best to explain what has been explained to me and if I have failed, then I apologize sincerely. I don`t want to take this thread any further off topic and take away from the fun and informative video that the Autopia crew filmed.

And I never take yours (or anybodies) comments as confrontational, even if we disagree or if it highlights something that I need to improve my explanations of. I appreciate the conversation and challenges, but past this post, I feel it becomes disrespectful continue to beat a dead horse to the crew who runs this forum.

[donbeezy]

i guess the vibration thing can be explained as a vehicle, its suspension and tires.

any vehicle that is lifted in the air and the wheels turning will "ride smoothly".. put that same vehicle on the road, its suspension (polishers internal gears, bearings and other misc parts) start to come into play.. further more you can have all kinds of different tires (pads) on it and it can completely change the vehicle (polisher) rides and even air psi (heating up the pad) can change the way it rides?

im partial to the way a caddy rides but most people love the way a BMW rides, so i guess polishers would be different strokes for different folks too.

[Bunky]

In the end, I usually wear hearing protection -- not ear buds playing music from a smartphone. Vibration is key to me.

[Mary B]

I just want to say THANKS FOR THE FANTASTIC COMPARISON !! Now that`s what I call COMPREHENSIVE CUSTOMER SERVICE !!
Really making this a tough decision. They are all amazing machines.

[pwaug]

I just want to say THANKS FOR THE FANTASTIC COMPARISON !! Now that`s what I call COMPREHENSIVE CUSTOMER SERVICE !!
Really making this a tough decision. They are all amazing machines.

You can`t go wrong with any of them, but there is one thing to consider--especially if you`re going to use this for just your own cars. The Griots machines have a lifetime warranty and their customer service is excellent. Imagine if you only use the polisher a few times a year and then 3 years down the road you have a problem--no worry with the Griots they`ll take care of it rather than spending $80-100 for a repair.

[JVD]

Interesting thread dudes.

One thing I would have loved to see is the "SPL meter" a set distance from the polisher in each test. Sound is a complex beast and proximity has a drastic effect on SPL... although less so than in free space... but still significant. Just something to keep in mind if some other testing is done.

Another thing I have also noticed over the years is that polishers may have different sonic signatures. Some are more fatiguing to my ears than others. I would think this is because humans are more sensitive to some frequencies than others.

It is my opinion that you should be wearing hearing protection or isolating ear phones regardless of polisher used. Although your phone is probably capable of being used in an SPL comparison I don`t believe true SPL is being shown. My reason for saying this is the fact that your room before the test measures at 15ish dB SPL... which is like recording studio quiet.

Last little bit of info I`m going to leave to further illustrate the need for hearing protection... each additional 6dB SPL means a DOUBLING in sound pressure level. Meaning our body perceives it as TWICE as loud. It`s a logarithmic scale, not linear.

[aceone]

VERY NICE VIDEO!!!! Thank You Ray and Paul for the video!!! I do not appreciate you guys making my head spin as to now I might have to get the c.c. out, I might be the proud owner of the FLEX XFE7-15 (I wasn`t even thinking about getting this before the XCE 9-8 150). Also, Thank You Mary B for the request (or should I blame you for my head spinning and going into debt???)!!!

[RaysWay]

Interesting thread dudes.

One thing I would have loved to see is the "SPL meter" a set distance from the polisher in each test. Sound is a complex beast and proximity has a drastic effect on SPL... although less so than in free space... but still significant. Just something to keep in mind if some other testing is done.

Another thing I have also noticed over the years is that polishers may have different sonic signatures. Some are more fatiguing to my ears than others. I would think this is because humans are more sensitive to some frequencies than others.

It is my opinion that you should be wearing hearing protection or isolating ear phones regardless of polisher used. Although your phone is probably capable of being used in an SPL comparison I don`t believe true SPL is being shown. My reason for saying this is the fact that your room before the test measures at 15ish dB SPL... which is like recording studio quiet.

Last little bit of info I`m going to leave to further illustrate the need for hearing protection... each additional 6dB SPL means a DOUBLING in sound pressure level. Meaning our body perceives it as TWICE as loud. It`s a logarithmic scale, not linear.

I agree with all of your points. The RUPES did have the "lowest" pitched sound of the three and using a cell phone for decibel readings isn`t the most accurate (or precise?) tool in the world but I was impressed that the app gave consistent results after each test. At least it was able to give us an idea of the differences. A stationery decibel meter would have been nice but after a couple video test runs, we found it was best to have someone hold the meter to avoid any glare from the overhead lights.

Good point about the exponential volume increase for every 6 dB`s.

[LEDetailng]

The Flex weighing almost one pound less than both the Rupes and Griots is probably the best selling point. ~20% lighter on top of quieter and less vibration makes for a hard choice between the three.

Griots, Flex, and Rupes are some smart marketing companies. Keep coming out with newer models with new technologies and features and us detailers will keep buying them. I could spend $1500 right now on polishers and still spend another $1000 just to make sure I can polish every conceivable curve or recess

[Mary B]

You can`t go wrong with any of them, but there is one thing to consider--especially if you`re going to use this for just your own cars. The Griots machines have a lifetime warranty and their customer service is excellent. Imagine if you only use the polisher a few times a year and then 3 years down the road you have a problem--no worry with the Griots they`ll take care of it rather than spending $80-100 for a repair.

So true, I`m also considering the double shot rubber, plus the Gun handle grip is in keeping with how I hold the end of the handle.

[Mary B]

VERY NICE VIDEO!!!! Thank You Ray and Paul for the video!!! I do not appreciate you guys making my head spin as to now I might have to get the c.c. out, I might be the proud owner of the FLEX XFE7-15 (I wasn`t even thinking about getting this before the XCE 9-8 150). Also, Thank You Mary B for the request (or should I blame you for my head spinning and going into debt???)!!!

Soo.. That`s a PE14-2-150, XFE7-15, XCE9-8-150, the Griot`s Boss twins, and the Rupes twins ??

[Brewins]

This yellow foam is softer, which causes it to compress to one edge. This compression will work itself out quickly (although not quite as quick as the video is shot), which is why you have some up and down movement as the pad rotates to the compressed edge and back to the uncompressed edge.

How quickly are we talking? The Rupes was shaking badly.

[GearHead_1]

How quickly are we talking? The Rupes was shaking badly.

I would expect it would be a matter of 30 seconds or so once the polish has been distributed in the pad. Shouldn`t take long.