carnauba vs polymer curing times

[III]

For those of you who layer true carnauba products (with no cleaners in it) do you wait 24 hours or do you layer right away after you buff off the previous layer? Again, I`m referring to carnauba products only. Also, I`m talking about people who believe that carnauba products can be layered. I understand that some people don`t think so. I`m asking because I don`t understand why people would wait 24 hours or longer to layer a carnauba product. I thought it`s an organic product that doesn`t set, but only dries, thus the need not to wait unlike a polymer product.

[Nickc0844]

I`ve had this disucssion with about 4 different manufacturers about the subject. The jist of this consists of: A carnauba takes approximately 5-7 days to fully cure, or harden/bond to the surface. A spritz of cool water tend to accelerate this process. However, applying 2 applications, not layers, of a carnauba is not worthwhile, as you`ll be wiping more and more off since the 2 seperate layers did not have time to bond. Also, if one were to wait the 5-7 days for a canauba cure time and apply a second application then, they would only see about 1.8 layers efffectively, because the aggitation will still remove some of it.

In general, a carnauba`s life span is the following:
After 1 month--50% is gone
After 2 months--75% is gone
After 3 months--90% is gone

Sealants are different in nature. While I haven`t seen a data on this, Poorboy`s EX-P is supposed to cure in 24 hours. Most of Hi-Temps sealants, i.e. Paint Perfection Glaze and Polymer Sealant, air cures in 36 hours.

Something that really gets me is the Zaino system, which I did not enjoy. They say you can continuously layer the product every 24 hours, and then there is a spray that will accelerate that even more, so one could put on 3 layers a day. To me, that is a bunch of brooo-ha. Now, by all means I am no chemist, but I`d like to see the actual results on that.

Anyhow, hope this bit of research I have done helps out.

[JaredPointer]

Originally posted by Nickc0844
I`ve had this disucssion with about 4 different manufacturers about the subject. The jist of this consists of: A carnauba takes approximately 5-7 days to fully cure, or harden/bond to the surface. A spritz of cool water tend to accelerate this process. However, applying 2 applications, not layers, of a carnauba is not worthwhile, as you`ll be wiping more and more off since the 2 seperate layers did not have time to bond. Also, if one were to wait the 5-7 days for a canauba cure time and apply a second application then, they would only see about 1.8 layers efffectively, because the aggitation will still remove some of it.

In general, a carnauba`s life span is the following:
After 1 month--50% is gone
After 2 months--75% is gone
After 3 months--90% is gone

Nick, is this (the 5-7 day cure time & the % gone) for carnauba pastes or liquids? Or both?

[Beemerboy]

NICK

LIke you take on Zaino I think its more of a scam than anything. I used it on my black BMW and was not impressed at all. The car was clean but had no real POP to the paint. The PB lineup was one that made the car come forward big time!!

[TheSopranos16]

Nick, If what your are saying is true, then that would mean that you shouldn`t wash a car that you just waxed for at least a week. That actually makes sense from my experiences because I always used to wash my car sooner than that and I would always be annoyed that no carnauba would last. Perhaps if I gave them at least a week without washing, they would last much longer. It would be nice to get some more informaiton on the subject as far as if there is any difference among the different carnaubas out there and if there is anything you can do (besides spritzing with water) to speed up the process.

-Charles

[JaredPointer]

Would a spray and wipe product affect the curing by speeding it up or stripping any of the carnauba?

[TheSopranos16]

I would think that it would, but probably to a lesser extent than a normal wash.

[Nickc0844]

Originally posted by JaredPointer
Nick, is this (the 5-7 day cure time & the % gone) for carnauba pastes or liquids? Or both?

That is based upon a liquid type. However, it has been my experience and from what other manufacturers have told me that pastes do not have the durability of a liquid. Part of this is because clear coat is porous, and a liquid can "seep" into those pores more easily.

[Nickc0844]

Originally posted by Beemerboy
NICK

LIke you take on Zaino I think its more of a scam than anything. I used it on my black BMW and was not impressed at all. The car was clean but had no real POP to the paint.

It`s been great at the Carlisle shows I`ve attended (4) in the past 18 months. Especially at the Corvette shows, Zaino has a big presence on their forums. Adam`s Polishes is out there with West Coast Corvettes and people will ask "How does your stuff compare" all the time. Once people see how easy the stuff is to use and the end result, they usually get the sale......and if that isn`t good enough, they offer a 110% guarantee on it!

Point being, some even get to where they want to compare them side to side......again, a transaction usually occurs afterward

[Nickc0844]

Originally posted by TheSopranos16
Nick, If what your are saying is true, then that would mean that you shouldn`t wash a car that you just waxed for at least a week. That actually makes sense from my experiences because I always used to wash my car sooner than that and I would always be annoyed that no carnauba would last. Perhaps if I gave them at least a week without washing, they would last much longer. It would be nice to get some more informaiton on the subject as far as if there is any difference among the different carnaubas out there and if there is anything you can do (besides spritzing with water) to speed up the process.

-Charles

No doubt Charles, and I even hesitate to use QD`s during that critical time. However, and I think I speak for most of the crowd here, durability isn`t my biggest concern as this is a hobby and profession.

Now, I`m sure carnuaba content also has a play in this thead, but then again, I`m no chemist. I cannot think of a way to speed up this process; if I did, I might be rich

As much as I love Spray and Wipe, I gotta think that ANY product you use within that period is going to diminish the durability by some margin. Then again, I`m no chemist.

[III]

Originally posted by Nickc0844
That is based upon a liquid type. However, it has been my experience and from what other manufacturers have told me that pastes do not have the durability of a liquid. Part of this is because clear coat is porous, and a liquid can "seep" into those pores more easily.

Nick, thank you for the great explanation so far on this subject. First, you said that carnaubas take 5-7 days to cure. So, this would mean that in your opinion, carnauba products take longer to cure than polymers?

Also, the quote above states that pastes don`t have the durability of a liquid. Boy, now I`m really confused! I thought
usually pastes would last longer because they have a little more carnauba content. This would have to do with liquids having more solvents in them which reduce the carnauba content. Not saying you`re wrong because I believe I`ve heard Mike Phillips say somewhat the samething. Talk to us Nick!!

[Nickc0844]

Absolutely, a polymer has a shorter cure time than a carnauba. The old style paste waxes (like actual paste and not block or solid type like Natty`s, P21S, etc) like Meguiar`s was advertised that it had a greater durability over their liquid. Granted, they were/are still carnauba based, so maybe a few weeks difference in durability. I gave up on the old style pastes because of the hassle of applying and removing. I noticed that Black Magic came out with a new and improved version in a toothpaste type tube, but I`m not spending $$ on it anytime soon. Take notice though at Walmart and auto part stores, there are less old style pastes out on the market these days. :dunno

Your (and Mike) are absolutely right that by adding solvents, you usually have to reduce the carnauba content. Solvents make removal easier, and synthetics are being used to aid in durability to replace the lost carnauba content. Poorboy Steve and Dwayne might have some input on this as well.

I would like to say that the greater the carnauba content (as well as the grade of it) will more or less affect the end result in means of shine and gloss, rather than durability. Hence the reason why Zymol sells their pastes at a high price. I`m just speculating there, but would love to learn more.

Thanks for bringing up such a great thread III. It`s something that gets confused quite often.

[NYV6Coupe]

Perhaps Zaino has just done a better job of developing a "buzz" and getting their message out to that segment of the market that looks for something better than "off the shelf" products at AutoZone & Wally World.

Word of mouth is a powerful tool, so is the Guru Report (which I haven`t seen).

[III]

Originally posted by Nickc0844

I would like to say that the greater the carnauba content (as well as the grade of it) will more or less affect the end result in means of shine and gloss, rather than durability.

Ok Nick, please bear with me. So, what you`re saying is this:

Paste waxes usually have more carnauba, which will produce more of a shine, but are not as durable as liquids.

Liquid waxes usually have less carnauba, which will produce less of a shine, but are more durable.

Call me :beat, but I don`t understand how something could have more carnauba and not be as durable compared to something having less carnauba.

[forrest@mothers]

Originally posted by Nickc0844
That is based upon a liquid type. However, it has been my experience and from what other manufacturers have told me that pastes do not have the durability of a liquid. Part of this is because clear coat is porous, and a liquid can "seep" into those pores more easily.

I have to disagree, nick. Clear coats aren`t porous, they`re simply paint without pigment. There are no pores for wax, liquid or paste, to seep into.

A paste wax is formed by heating (liquifying) some solids, and blending with liquids, then cooling to form a hard paste. Soft pastes are nothing more than thickened liquids.

And, in this:

Originally posted by Nickc0844
A carnauba takes approximately 5-7 days to fully cure, or harden/bond to the surface. A spritz of cool water tend to accelerate this process. However, applying 2 applications, not layers, of a carnauba is not worthwhile, as you`ll be wiping more and more off since the 2 seperate layers did not have time to bond. Also, if one were to wait the 5-7 days for a canauba cure time and apply a second application then, they would only see about 1.8 layers efffectively, because the aggitation will still remove some of it.

Spritzing with water doesn`t accelerate any curing, it simply wipes away some of the oils which are present in the formulae. With any product, carnauba or synthetic, multiple coats don`t add up (1+1 doesn`t equal 2) due to the solvent carriers present and the abrading action that comes from product application and removal.