carnauba vs polymer curing times

[Intermezzo]

Originally posted by forrest
We (Mothers) are of the opinion that wax does not cure, per se. When applied, it is carried in (usually) a solvent or solvents. The solvents evaporate away, leaving the waxes, oils and other ingredients on the paint surface. When the solvents flash, leaving the ingredients behind, they dry (haze). You then buff this off, leaving a temporary, hard coating behind which protects the paint and creates gloss. This sacrificial coating is gradually removed by environmental conditions, washing and other methods.

I couldn`t agree more. To say that a carnauba wax (even one with so-called polymers added to it) undergoes a curing process is REALLY using the word "Curing" loosely.

[jaybs02]

Curing by definition "is a drying process"

[Intermezzo]

Actually, drying is just a part of the curing process. The entire curing process involves a lot more than the simple outgassing of a product’s solvents.

[jaybs02]

taken from MSN dictionary (medical references have been deleted)
cure

4. transitive and intransitive verbpreserve food:
to preserve food, especially meat or fish, usually by smoking, drying, or salting it, or to be preserved by one of these methods
5. transitive verb preserve by drying:
to preserve a substance, especially leather or tobacco, by drying it
6. transitive verb finish with chemical process:
to finish a material by applying chemicals
7. transitive verb make rubber stronger:
to strengthen rubber with additives in the presence of heat and pressure
8. transitive and intransitive verb harden:
to make a material, especially concrete or cement, harden

[JaredPointer]

Ok, let`s not stray too far from the original idea of the post. We`re still civil on this, but let`s not let it get out of hand

[jaybs02]

not looking to stray just want to put everybody on the same page (of the dictionary :lol)
I`m very interested.... I asked a similar question last week but didn`t quite get as good of a response as this thread is bringing.
I really would like to know

[III]

Originally posted by JaredPointer
Ok, let`s not stray too far from the original idea of the post. We`re still civil on this, but let`s not let it get out of hand

Actually, this is becoming a really good thread.

[JaredPointer]

That`s good. Just didn`t want it to get more `smarta$$y` than informative and it looked like it coulda been going that way.

[III]

Originally posted by forrest
We (Mothers) are of the opinion that wax does not cure, per se. When applied, it is carried in (usually) a solvent or solvents. The solvents evaporate away, leaving the waxes, oils and other ingredients on the paint surface. When the solvents flash, leaving the ingredients behind, they dry (haze). You then buff this off, leaving a temporary, hard coating behind which protects the paint and creates gloss. This sacrificial coating is gradually removed by environmental conditions, washing and other methods.

So Forrest, if I`m understanding you correctly, you would disagree with the 5-7 day curing time that was stated earlier for carnaubas? This would mean that IF someone believes that carnaubas can be layered, someone could layer right away?

[forrest@mothers]

You could apply a second coat right away if you choose to. Or you could wait a day if it makes you feel any better. I`d wait a day because I`d likely find something else to occupy me as a change of pace and scenery.

As soon as someone comes up with a definitive test to show me where it makes a difference, I`ll let you know.

I`ve never seen any empirical data to substantiate the need to wait.

[The Chee]

Great posts everyone, thanks

ps: play nice k coz it`s just wax

[CharlesW]

So far this thread has been quite entertaining.
The following comments are not meant to be disrespectful, just pointing out just how far car care is from an exact science.

Things we have determined
1. Carnauba waxes can be layered
2. Carnauba waxes can`t be layered
3. Well, maybe they can be layered
4. If they are layered, (which may or may not be possible), you should wait before applying the next layer.
5. Unless you want to go ahead and add the next layer right away. (Which may or may not be possible)
6. It is very unlikely that very many people will change their thinking because of this discussion.
7. Then again, some people might change their thinking because of this discussion.
8. The one statement I will make without any concern of a major disagreement. "If you prep the surface to start with, no matter whether you apply 1 or 10 layers, wait a day, a week, an hour, you will probably have one darn good looking vehicle."

If I am doing a full detail, my personal preference for any and all products is to apply two coats of the product I am using, following the manufacturers instructions for cure/drying/wait time. My reason is simply to be sure I didn`t miss any areas with the first application.

Charles

[Nickc0844]

Dave,

I think there was a misunderstanding and a misquote by myself. What I meant was that "in general" a paste wax, like S100 or Souveran, will outshine a liquid wax. This is certainly not in everycase, as you came back and said, which I should have elabrorated on. Are paste waxes in general not loaded with more oils than liquids? UV is simply (1) element of oxidation. Why does contamination need oxygen, because it breaks down if it doesn`t, thus, another reason for oxidation. Water plays a huge part in oxidation on single stage, especially when you get a mid-day rain, and then the sun blazes down on it.

I think you could have done a better job at bashing me through an email, rather than degrade my integrity here on this fine site and try and make me look like a total dumba$$. I`m just stating what I have heard from manufacturers and developers, and it`s not like I picked this stuff up from 1 guy. It`s not like I made this junk up! For all this time I had great respect for you since we met at Ford Truck World over 2 years ago.

Forrest,
I hope you do not think I was knocking your credentials at all. I just never had a conversation with you on DC, and when something was said that was totally opposite of what I was taught, I decided to ask. Mother`s is a good company, and I`m glad this thread took off. By all means, I do not think orange peel are the pores. If you take a 100x magnifying glass, you`ll be able to see the actual surface of the clear coat. When it comes to the actual numbers of layers or what not, it all depends on who is testing it and what product it is. I simply stated what I had learned from other professionals. By all means I`m not arguing over 1.2 and 1.5 layers.

In the end, Charles summed it up nicely with #8 and frankly, that is what this HOBBY is all about

[jaybs02]

Originally posted by CharlesW
So far this thread has been quite entertaining.
The following comments are not meant to be disrespectful, just pointing out just how far car care is from an exact science.

Things we have determined
1. Carnauba waxes can be layered
2. Carnauba waxes can`t be layered
3. Well, maybe they can be layered
4. If they are layered, (which may or may not be possible), you should wait before applying the next layer.
5. Unless you want to go ahead and add the next layer right away. (Which may or may not be possible)
6. It is very unlikely that very many people will change their thinking because of this discussion.
7. Then again, some people might change their thinking because of this discussion.
8. The one statement I will make without any concern of a major disagreement. "If you prep the surface to start with, no matter whether you apply 1 or 10 layers, wait a day, a week, an hour, you will probably have one darn good looking vehicle."

If I am doing a full detail, my personal preference for any and all products is to apply two coats of the product I am using, following the manufacturers instructions for cure/drying/wait time. My reason is simply to be sure I didn`t miss any areas with the first application.

Charles

It almost sounds like a Burns & Allen routine...
Damn showing my age again

[Boss_429]

Originally posted by Nickc0844
Dave,

I think there was a misunderstanding and a misquote by myself. What I meant was that "in general" a paste wax, like S100 or Souveran, will outshine a liquid wax. This is certainly not in everycase, as you came back and said, which I should have elabrorated on. Are paste waxes in general not loaded with more oils than liquids? UV is simply (1) element of oxidation. Why does contamination need oxygen, because it breaks down if it doesn`t, thus, another reason for oxidation. Water plays a huge part in oxidation on single stage, especially when you get a mid-day rain, and then the sun blazes down on it.

I think you could have done a better job at bashing me through an email, rather than degrade my integrity here on this fine site and try and make me look like a total dumba$$. I`m just stating what I have heard from manufacturers and developers, and it`s not like I picked this stuff up from 1 guy. It`s not like I made this junk up! For all this time I had great respect for you since we met at Ford Truck World over 2 years ago.

Nick,

First, I`m not going to repsond to you first paragraph, as I don`t want to disagree with you anymore. (or bash as you call it)

Next, I did not attempt to make you look like a dumba$$....... you made all those statements, I didn`t. I did nothing more than you did to forest............... I disagreed with you, and still do on many of your points. Therefore, in the same way you did to forest, I questioned your credentials. Of course, I didn`t realize that I wasn`t allowed to disagree with you (again, "bash" as you call it). Anyhow, I`ll be more careful not to disagree with you in the future. It seems you, Adam`s, and his chemist have it all pretty much covered anyhow, and certainly don`t need me around at DC anymore.

Lastly, just because you are talking to "experts"........... it doesn`t mean they are right either. I`ve talked to many, many experts over the years. Some of what the told me seems to be true, some wasn`t. (Similar to the TS is Pinnacle Souveran information you got from some "expert")

P.S. You can choose to respect me, or not respect me........ I really don`t care, as I never asked for your respect.