carnauba vs polymer curing times

[Boss_429]

I couldn`t agree more forrest!

I would also add that a liguid wax does not "necessarily" have "less" shine than a paste wax........... nor does a paste wax "necessarily" have "less" durability than a liquid wax!

[jaybs02]

Is there a benefit of durability if i apply a second and/or third "layer" spaced 1 week apart.
giving the carnuba an ample "cure" time.
And what would that do to depth and clarity?

Sorry for taking this off on a tangent

[forrest@mothers]

The benefit of a second coat is primarily to ensure complete coverage of the paint surface.

1+1 equal about 1.3-1.6 IMO.

[III]

Originally posted by forrest
I have to disagree, nick. Clear coats aren`t porous, they`re simply paint without pigment. There are no pores for wax, liquid or paste, to seep into.

Ok, maybe I shouldn`t have started this thread as now I`m really confused. Forrest, before I type this, I`m not trying to argue or say that you`re wrong. I respect everyone`s comments here, and on all the threads for that matter. All I`m saying is that someone else made the comment about paint and pores. That person being Mike Phillips. Here he is talking about Meguiar`s #7:

"The idea is to "Push" the product into the pores of the paint, allow it to cure or dry, (if it`s a drying product) then wipe off the material remaining on the surface."

http://www.autopia.org/forums/showth...threadid=23740

[forrest@mothers]

I think it`s probably a matter of semantics. The pores I think Mike is referring to are the microscopic valleys in a paint surface - the unevenness. Think of it as orange peel on a small scale. The purpose of a glaze (which is what his post referred to, not a wax) is to level out the minor surface imperfections by filling them, making the surface more uniform and therefore shinier.

You may want to PM Mike and ask for clarification. I have never seen him refer to pores in paint as in a porous surface.

[Nickc0844]

Forrest,

I personally do not know you, have not seen you post (18 posts since Feb of 2003), nor know your credentials. I said all along that I am not a chemist, however, I do know a bit about body shop work and paint.

For one, paint AND clear coats are porous; call PPG and DuPont. That is why oxidation can occur so quickly. Dirt and contamination seeps into the pores, and then a typical owner will wash the car. Well, washing alone does not remove build up in pores, that is why clay evolved. So people wax on top of dirt and contamination. These contaminants need to breath, so in order to do so, since the wax has sufficated them, they deteriorate and spread. So one built up pore breaks down into another pore and so on and so on, thus, the ugly white mess that is 1 cause of oxidation.

Your statement about pastes is absolutely correct, but those "filler" liquids and such have an effect on ease of use and durability. I do not doubt you on that at all.

As for the water trick to accelerate curing time, call Car Care Specialties, Hi-Temp, and Adam`s Polishes and they will say the same. I`m not saying they are right, but coming from a manufacturer and/or developer, I tend to side with them.

Your absolutely right that 1+1 of any product does not equal 2. That was already stated. Varying chemicals can have more of an adverse affect over another. This is especially true when using a cleaner wax (i.e. Meguiar`s) over a Poorboy`s product, or anything for that matter.

"I would also add that a liguid wax does not "necessarily" have "less" shine than a paste wax........... nor does a paste wax "necessarily" have "less" durability than a liquid wax!"

This is just a general statement, and what the bulk of the market is.

"The benefit of a second coat is primarily to ensure complete coverage of the paint surface.
1+1 equal about 1.3-1.6 IMO."
Is this a factual statement or just an opinion? From what I have researched, if one puts 2 layers of a carnauba based wax on a car in one day, they tend to wipe off 80%-90% of that layer. Thus, is the time and the effort really worth it? To me, it would be a No.

One thing is for sure, I`m not a Chemical Engineer.
Secondly, use what you like and use it often!

[Nickc0844]

Originally posted by jaybs95
Is there a benefit of durability if i apply a second and/or third "layer" spaced 1 week apart.
giving the carnuba an ample "cure" time.
And what would that do to depth and clarity?

Sorry for taking this off on a tangent

I would say absolutely based upon what I`ve found from various manufacturers. I wouldn`t let this thread deter you from doing what your doing. I personally do that, and come winter time, plan on taking it a step further. My daily driver did excellent last winter by doing a layering technique, and I (felt) that I did it better by not having to wax once a month or even every other month.

Depending on the wax that you use, it can darken your finish (Trade Secret). Just check out Jeff Cullup`s sweet blue ride on www.topoftheline.com. Zaino zealots claim they see a difference between 15-30 coats (really applications) but I personally think that is a bunch of crap. :dunno

[dafowl1]

I know they say qd`s replinishes carnuba wax do that extend the life of carnuba waxes

[Intel486]

I have to agree w/ Nick here.

Everything I have read and heard points to paint being porus. So what that it`s paint w/o pigment. Paint is porus.

Ron Ketch, from autoint, has always said paint is porus as well as many other quality chemical companies.

[forrest@mothers]

Nick - as for my cirriculum vitae, I`m VP of Sales for Mothers, and have been in the appearance chemical business for over 15 years, and in the automotive aftermarket for 25. I have what I believe is a very good working knowledge of appearance chemical chemistry, and a more than adequate skill level in paint care. I`m sure if you`ll ask around on other sites, you`ll find I`m not one to blow smoke, or shill our products shamelesly, but try hard to help others with problems; recommending the type of product they need, not the brand.

And yes, while I`ve been registered here at DC for some time, I don`t post frequently. My main interest is always seeing our products are described correctly, and correcting any misstatements made about them.

I don`t want to waste your time or the bandwidth with minor differenes of semantics, but your comment about contaminants needing to breathe doesn`t sound correct to me. The contaminants aren`t living, breatheing organisms; they`re pieces of dirt, tree sap, industrial fallout and the like. They sit on the paint, not burrowing into the paint surface.

Porousity of the paint surface would lead to oxidation of the substate, more commonly known as rust. But, then again, I`m thinking this again is a case of semantics -at what point does an uneven paint surface (minute orange peel, for lack of a better description) get described as pores? It`s quite likely you and I are describing the same thing in different terms or words.

As for the second coat ("The benefit of a second coat is primarily to ensure complete coverage of the paint surface. 1+1 equal about 1.3-1.6 IMO."

Is this a factual statement or just an opinion? From what I have researched, if one puts 2 layers of a carnauba based wax on a car in one day, they tend to wipe off 80%-90% of that layer. Thus, is the time and the effort really worth it? To me, it would be a No.)

It is my opinion (IMO, as I stated above). We have standardized testing whch can be done utilizing a salt water spray to determine longevity of products on test panels. Yes, 2 layers last slightly longer than one, hence my 1.3-1.6 answer. Wiping off 80-90% in your example leaves 1.1-1.2, so again, a matter of semantics.

One of the best parts of this business is the opportunity to try many new products, processes and techniques. One should never close his eyes to new ideas, or dismiss those of others, but should always remember the perfect finish will never exist - it is a moving target to be strived for constantly as products, processes and techniques improve..

[forrest@mothers]

Nick - I realized I forgot to ask after posting the above, and not wanting to edit my ramblings, decided to post here.

I`m guessing my difficulties with some of your statements have to do with semantics. Define "pores" for me, so I can understand how you`re referring to them.

That would help me.

thanks.

[6cyl's_of_fury]

Can someone tell me how a wax "cures" or is it being applied as a generic term?
Essentially all a wax does is put a layer of oils on the surface after the solvent carriers evaporate. and how that takes 5-7 days has me beat. It doesnt bond to the surface, it just sits there. Unless there is a polymer component that requires to be crosslinked, thus "cured", then I fail to see how a wax "cures".

Can someone learned please clear it up?

[jaybs02]

Fury,
I believe that they are referring to the amount of time it takes for the carrier
element(s) in the wax to eveporate, letting the carnuba get to it`s hardened state.

Forrest,
I agree that if you attenpt to apply a second coat of anything prior to letting the first coat to completely "dry/cure/harden" (whatever term we want to choose) will only remove a portion of the previous layer.

The original question from III was how long should we WAIT BEFORE APPLYING a second layer, looking to achieve maximun benefit.
If the answer is a week... then the answer is a week.
I personally am not a chemist, mearly a hobbyist/enthusiast looking to learn more so that I can achieve the best possible results.

I want to thank you and all the others for this informative thread.

"J"

[Boss_429]

Originally posted by Nickc0844
[B]
"I would also add that a liguid wax does not "necessarily" have "less" shine than a paste wax........... nor does a paste wax "necessarily" have "less" durability than a liquid wax!"

This is just a general statement, and what the bulk of the market is.

[i]

Nick, DO NOT quote my statement as general statement when you`ve made a WHOLE BUNCH of general statements in one thread!

I would also say that forrest knows as much about paint/car care as anybody here at DC............... and probably as much as some of the experts you have been talking too.

Thanks for the information though.............. it is really cool to know that paint can "absorb" the carnauba in liguid carnauba, but can`t absorb the carnauba in paste carnauba?

There are so many things wrong with statement, I don`t know where to start!

Oh yes, one more thing............ oxidation of the paint is caused by the Sun`s UV rays............. that`s why that put UV protection in clear coat paint. A single stage paint kept perfectly clean, with no protective wax, will "oxidize" if left out in the sun in a very short period of time.

[forrest@mothers]

Originally posted by 6cyl`s_of_fury
Can someone tell me how a wax "cures" or is it being applied as a generic term?
Essentially all a wax does is put a layer of oils on the surface after the solvent carriers evaporate. and how that takes 5-7 days has me beat. It doesnt bond to the surface, it just sits there. Unless there is a polymer component that requires to be crosslinked, thus "cured", then I fail to see how a wax "cures".

Can someone learned please clear it up?

We (Mothers) are of the opinion that wax does not cure, per se. When applied, it is carried in (usually) a solvent or solvents. The solvents evaporate away, leaving the waxes, oils and other ingredients on the paint surface. When the solvents flash, leaving the ingredients behind, they dry (haze). You then buff this off, leaving a temporary, hard coating behind which protects the paint and creates gloss. This sacrificial coating is gradually removed by environmental conditions, washing and other methods.