using the rotary buffer outside--total swirl removal ?

[chip douglas]

Thanks heaps Shotime, that is much appreciated.

Incidentally, I`ve already started using the rotary since last summer. I do great results from it, but as I said if i don`t wipe off a given area I just went over with the buffer, I look at it in the full sun, and it looks *perfectly swirl free*. But If I use either quick detailer, or a 50/50 water/alcohol mixture, then it`s a different story . All that is left are hairline swirls, but they`re there all the same...and want them out.

The procedure you outlines is exactly the one I`ve used. I clean the pad after each panel, and inspect it very very often for any dirt particles. I spin the buffer at 1400 rpm, and at times 1100. I move it slowly on the paint if using a swirl remover, and faster if using a light cut, or medium cut--common sense here.


There`s one thing I`m not clear about though : when you say never move in the same direction, do you mean the first stroke is say up and down and then the second right to left, the third is then diagonal ? Or rather you meant, you make a complete pass up and down and then finish up right to left ?

Thanks again Bud

[kimwallace]

I have used a rotary buffer off and on for 30 plus years.
On some paints I have been able to remove all swirls with it on others almost all.
Before the PC came along the remaining swirls were removed by hand with a very fine polish.
A product that seems to help in removing the last of the swirls is Meguiars #3 Machine Glaze.
Being a glaze it will fill the remaining swirls or if you work it enough,it will also remove them because it is also a polish (rated #1 on Meguiars abrasive scale ... which is less than SFP #3 on scale).
The best advice I can offer in addition to proper speeds and products is to keep the pads clean.
I have found that if my wool pads sit for very long without being used, it is impossible to buff without getting swirls.
I might be getting lazy, but lately I use a combination of the rotary and the PC.
I use the rotary for the heavy cutting and polishing and then follow up with the PC.
Todays paints vary so much from car to car that I use whatever tool that gets me the results I am after.
At least I do not have to wear my arms out rubbing out the paint by hand.
Remember, there are many different tools available to accomplish a great job ... experiment and find the best combination for you

[chip douglas]

kimwallace,

thanks for sharing

[Anthony O.]

chip,

I am experimenting with both product and technique.

Also, if I am not mistaken, Shotime......the Meguair products you mentioned have filler oils in, hence this is the reason you may not see any swirls. To be sure wipe the car down with a 50/50 mixture of water and alcohol or a paint prep product like Hi-Temps "Klean".

Use a "true" polish, meaning a polish with no fillers.

Anthony

[chip douglas]

Anthony,

thanks for backing my point. I`m not at all after brown nosing, or anything like that, it`s just that I too have found that without properly wiping the product with a 50/50 alcohol water mix, the finish appears flawless, which can be misleading. Shotime, I`m not at all knocking you here, but just wanted to point out that to really claim a swirl free finish, one must make sure it is so, by properly wiping any filler oils leftover by some polish. I`m not much in a position to tell others what to do, given you and others have way more years of experience than I do, but I think this last point is worth mentioning. Please don`t be offended, as in no way am I trying to produce such a reaction.


Best regards

[shotime]

There`s one thing I`m not clear about though : when you say never move in the same direction, do you mean the first stroke is say up and down and then the second right to left, the third is then diagonal ? Or rather you meant, you make a complete pass up and down and then finish up right to left ?

Thanks again Bud

Do the whole panel in one direction, then switch directions and do the whole panel again and so on.

I don`t wipe down the panels with alcohol because I`ve never had a problem with swirls reappearing. My dad`s Mountaineer is black and I see it most every day. I used the rotory on in about 2 months ago and any swirls in the paint that appeared since then were caused by normal wear and tear. He totally neglects it so if any rotory installed swirls were there, they`d be obvious and have shown by now.

[dr_detail]

Originally posted by chip douglas
I truly hope to start a debate out of this conversation about the buffer not being able to totally remove swirling. I really wonder what is the technique behind it, I mean if one starts with the less abrasive combination of pads/compounds, works on a very clean surface, use high quality micro fibers, doesn`t dry buff, run the rotary in a cross hatch manner, keeping the pad as flat as can be etc...

I know that there are stuffs that only come through experience, however buffing is not *that* complicated I`m sure, as I`ve done for two years now. It can be tricky as different paint, react differently, but I`d really like as much experienced rotary users to chime in on this :

can the rotary really take *all* swirls out ? Yes I`m insisting on this aspect, and I`m sure there are others who wonder about the same. If anyone exprienced user can come up and outline the way to get rid of *all* swirls with the rotary, that would really be nice, and I mean it

Yes all swirls can be removed with a rotary. It`s technique and experience that does it. I sometimes despise those who say that "it`s not all that hard." If it wasn`t, then we all could buff cars without leaving behind swirls. It`s also like saying Michael Angelo`s David is just a carved piece of marble and anyone could do it. Buffing paint to me is more than a process, it`s an art form -- the vehicle is my canvas and the compounds/polishes/waxes are my paints. If anyone has ever polished Plexiglas they will know that polishing surfaces is a series of steps. First it`s something rough and abrasive, next comes something finer in the amount of grit. Next something even finer. Then we move into the finishing polishing processes. Each time the process is repeated with the corresponding product the surface gets smoother and smoother as the scratches become less and less. Eventually, the surface is smooth as glass and translucent. You can not skip steps in the process for without the finer abrasives before the polish, you can never remove the scratches. As an example, if you were to wet sand a section of the vehicle with 1000 grit paper then wax over it, it would be shiny, it would be reflective, it would bead water and be smooth -- but those scratches are still there. There are also something called towel scratches which are entirely different from swirls. To demonstrate, get a good looking, clean black vehicle. Now take a dry terry-cloth towel and wipe it across the hood -- what is left behind are towel scratches. These are easily removed with a good wax or glaze. Swirls are uniform circular marks left behind from a high speed polisher (just like that of a record -- if ya don`t know what a record is, put down your I-Pod/MP3 player and go ask your parents). You cannot get swirls in a car from anything other than a polisher -- period. For those that are having difficulty with swirls I offer up a suggested swirl removal process -- get a meg`s W9000 pad (the beige one) and some BAF Pro Polish #1. As a last step in your process, before applying hand wax or glaze, buff using the polish at a setting of around 2k rpm. If there are swirls going front to back, go side to side just to see if they are from the polish or previous steps. If they are from previous steps, they will still be front to back and will need to be removed with a polish/pad combination of a lesser grit than the previous step, but greater than the polish. I can`t demonstrate pad positioning, pressure techniques, trigger feathering, or any of the other tricks I have learned over the years -- that`ll have to come from your own experience. I can tell you though to imagine and think of the direction the pad spins and keep in mind that you do not want to use the section of the pad that will go side to side but the section of pad that will go front to back. And as another helping method, loose the buffer handle.

[chip douglas]

dr_detail,

very informative post, I`ll read it over, and ask if any questions.

Many thanks !!

[chip douglas]

I can tell you though to imagine and think of the direction the pad spins and keep in mind that you do not want to use the section of the pad that will go side to side but the section of pad that will go front to back. And as another helping method, loose the buffer handle.


But isn`t the pad supposed to be flat as much as possible ? Maybe I`m wrong but from what you wrote, I take it to mean that the pad is slighlty tilted, to get the one section you say one should. Would you be so kind as to explain that part alone some more ?

Cheers

[kimwallace]

dr_detail
You nailed it!
"It`s technique and experience that does it."
Polishing paint is the same as polishing fine jewelery or pieces for plastic injection molding.
You start out with a product to level the existing marks and work down in abrasiveness to achieve a flawless finish.
I have polished hardened metal pieces to the point that the reflection is pure.
Not everyone is capable of doing that ... I am not saying that to brag ... but it takes learned skills and a desire to achieve the desired result.
A lot of people want the desired result but do not want to invest the time and effort to achieve it.
Rather than spending time debating this issue, why not grab the rotary and practice until the desired results are achieved

[chip douglas]

Believe me, I do practice a lot...I`ve been practicing since last summer, and now Im on vacation, spent last week, and will spend this one buffing as well......I want to get where many of you are and I will, it`s just a matter of time for me to get there, and practice too.

Cheers

[dr_detail]

For beginners I`ll say it again ..... get some 40 grit sandpaper, a piece of faced (oak, poplar, maple, etc) plywood and using your rotary with the flexy back and the nut, try to sand with the grain not against it... this is the best way I can describe the pad placement and propper usage area. I`ll also post a pic for those that are more analytical and like to see diagrams... Not everyone can Buff cars-- exactly Kim, it takes lots of practice and experience. It`s like playin the Guitar, some of us no matter how hard we try -- will never be Jimmy Hendrix.

[chip douglas]

dr_detail,

gee I like that diagram a lot, that helps me much. Where did you get that from ? I`d like the URL.

It makes it clear that one should use the highlighted part of the pad, and THAT I didn`t know at all. I used the whole pad. Maybe that is why I`ve been unsuccessful.

Thanks heaps !!

[dr_detail]

It came from the training manual I developed many years ago.....

[chip douglas]

Oh,

anyways, I do like it a lot . I just wonder why it was not pointed to me earlier........everyone keep saying to keep the pad flat--that`s all one hear.

Are there any other interesting diagrams like that one in your manual ?