using the rotary buffer outside--total swirl removal ?

[chip douglas]

It can truly be downright frustrating indeed, especially when you`re as nutty as I`m . I`m all about detail, and my girlfriend, mom, dad, and everyone I know, tell me I`m overboard, but hey I`m 32 and when it comes to giving my car and my girlfriends, parents the best finish they can get, nothing will stop me

Let me say It was a relief to hear Anthony say I would never get all of them swirls out with the rotary, cause I`ve tried it all and what little was left wouldn`t budge

[Poorboy]

how true ..how true...in all my years I`ve only seen two perfect paint jobs , both on street rods that had better than 50k invested in paint and they were both trailer queens...

[chip douglas]

It can really run one a lot of dough to acheive a perfect fisnish, especially, when you`re talking 50K and trailer queens :wait

[Anthony O.]

Originally posted by tguil
Anthony,

Are you suggesting that if a vehicle has only minor swirls and marring, you should not use a rotary in attempting to remove them?

So far there has been nothing that I haven`t been able to get out of black Hemi or my wife`s silver Tacoma with only a pc and a variety of pads and abbrasives. I`ve been considering the purchase of a Makita 9227 for over a year and every time I get ready to place the order I read a post that causes me to think --- "Now let`s just wait a minute..."

Tom :cool

Tom,

If they are minor then I would first try the PC with a SMR and a polishing pad. Review the car in the sun and see how it looks. I use a product from Hi-Temp called "KLEAN" and it removes any and all bufing residue, including oils and fillers. I use it after I buff an area and this helps me see the true paint. A 50/50 mixture of water/alcohol will also remove any fillers.

I have come close to a swirl free finish using only a rotary but there are still some here and there, ever so light, but they can be seen still. When I reach this point I stop trying to remove the rest with a rotary and then go to my Cyclo. Work small areas very slowly and it almost always removes the remaining, depending on how hard the clear is.

Anthony

[Anthony O.]

Originally posted by chip douglas
It gets very confusing at times, as Bud Abraham down at *secrets of the exerts* forum, says swirls caused by the rotary can only be taken out with a rotary......Bud says PC only hide and do not remove swirls. Personally, I`d say Bud is wrong, but all of those individuals all have wayyy more experience than I do, so that`s why it gets very confusing.

That being said, from my own experience, I`m with Anthony, in that *all* swirls cannot be taken out with the rotary alone, as god knows I`ve tried and I`m so meticulous !

Cheers

Bud is a good guy.....he is a character for sure but also a good guy whom I have alot of respect for. He and I disagree on many things, one area are swirls, not so much on how they are introduced but rather what can remove them. Rotaries and swirls and like fighting fire with fire. To remove swirls properly and effectively you need to use the same machine (the rotary) that put them in there but use a better technique.

I am experimenting with some stuff and I am trying to get a swirl free finish with a rotary. If I succed I`ll share it with you all.

Anthony

[chip douglas]

Anthony,

when you say you`re experimenting with some stuff to get a swirl free finish with a rotary, do you mean products, or more like technique ?

Cheers

[Don]

So far with roughly a year experience with the PC, I have been able to remove all but the deepest scratches from the paint of whatever car I`ve worked on. How am I sure they are gone and not covered? On a few cars, after buffing with Megs #83, I`ve done the dreaded dish soap wash to make sure I got all the residue and buffing gunk off of the car. Once the car was dried with a M/F, there were absolutely no traces of the pre-buffing swirls.

If dish soap can strip even some of the strongest waxes/sealants from a car`s finish, a nonprotective polish shouldn`t stand a chance, and all oils/fillers should be gone.

[shotime]

Originally posted by Anthony Orosco
Bud is a good guy.....he is a character for sure but also a good guy whom I have alot of respect for. He and I disagree on many things, one area are swirls, not so much on how they are introduced but rather what can remove them. Rotaries and swirls and like fighting fire with fire. To remove swirls properly and effectively you need to use the same machine (the rotary) that put them in there but use a better technique.

I am experimenting with some stuff and I am trying to get a swirl free finish with a rotary. If I succed I`ll share it with you all.

Anthony

Not causing swirls with a rotory is 100% technique. I did a maroon vehicle yesterday with #84 and a wool pad and swirling even with that harsh of a combination was very minimal. I followed up with #83 and Meg`s polishing pad and there weren`t any swirls at all. I finished polishing with #82/Edge blue on a PC and the finish was flawless.

Using the rotory takes time and patience. You will not get a swirl free finish your first time, you might even burn through the paint. I`ve been detailing for 10 years and have done a couple thousand details. I started out using a rotory. It`s only in the past year or so that I`ve perfected my technique to where I don`t swirl or cause very little swirls with a rotory. I believe anybody capable with a PC can learn to use a rotory given they stick to it enough. The first vehicle I ever used a rotory on was a red Monte Carlo.....I wish I had a pic of it to show the MASSIVE amount of holigrams in it. Don`t give up if you screw up, learn from your mistakes.

[chip douglas]

shotime,

good post that is yours. Would you mind sharing what is the technique you use with the rotary, to avoid swirling, as that would be ever so convenient ? Also, after you buffed the car, did you wipe it down with a MF 50/50 alcohol/water mix, and then look at the finish under bright sunlight ? As if i didn`t wipe the finish after either 83 or 82, the finish would indeed appear flawless.

I find this kind of discussion very tricky, as some with experience claim one cannot get a swirl free finish using the rotary alone, and then others claim they can......now who is telling the truth.

I`m sure you get my point, and I`m honestly confused right now

[Bill D]

I will have access to some maroon fenders to start practicing my rotary with. He he, while others go out and practice their golf swing, I`ll be out practing the rotary

[chip douglas]

I truly hope to start a debate out of this conversation about the buffer not being able to totally remove swirling. I really wonder what is the technique behind it, I mean if one starts with the less abrasive combination of pads/compounds, works on a very clean surface, use high quality micro fibers, doesn`t dry buff, run the rotary in a cross hatch manner, keeping the pad as flat as can be etc...

I know that there are stuffs that only come through experience, however buffing is not *that* complicated I`m sure, as I`ve done for two years now. It can be tricky as different paint, react differently, but I`d really like as much experienced rotary users to chime in on this :

can the rotary really take *all* swirls out ? Yes I`m insisting on this aspect, and I`m sure there are others who wonder about the same. If anyone exprienced user can come up and outline the way to get rid of *all* swirls with the rotary, that would really be nice, and I mean it

[Bill D]

Probably unrealistically, but to purely and truly answer that question definitely, the only way I can think of is we would have identify the most talented rotary users in the world and have them work on swirls in every conceivable paint finish known. Short of that, there will just have to be much debate and maybe a general consensus afterwards.

As for me, I just have wait to get those fenders to start practicing on

[chip douglas]

Bill,

I agree to the fact that it`s a question hard to be answered, still from the users on this forum, as I know some are quite talented, we can still get a pretty good idea I`m sure. Anthony, If I recall correctly has used the rotary for 14 years, and my impression is that someone with that much experience must have tried pretty much all techniques out there. The thing is If the rotary can produce swirl free finish, I`d like to know how to . Then If it is impossible then, I`ll know and thus use the PC as a final step. But demanding as I am, If there`s some technique to achieve a swirl free paint with the rotary, I got to master it lol.

This is the way I am, I`ll never resort to something less complicated even though it can produce the same result....I may be a bit nutty

[Bill D]

yeah I know what you mean, I think even Mike Phillips follows up with a PC after the rotary

[shotime]

Originally posted by chip douglas
shotime,

good post that is yours. Would you mind sharing what is the technique you use with the rotary, to avoid swirling, as that would be ever so convenient ? Also, after you buffed the car, did you wipe it down with a MF 50/50 alcohol/water mix, and then look at the finish under bright sunlight ? As if i didn`t wipe the finish after either 83 or 82, the finish would indeed appear flawless.

I find this kind of discussion very tricky, as some with experience claim one cannot get a swirl free finish using the rotary alone, and then others claim they can......now who is telling the truth.

I`m sure you get my point, and I`m honestly confused right now

It`s hard to explain because it`s more of a feel you develop, but I`ll try.

You can get very close to a swirl free finish with a rotory. Unless you can see 100% of the car in direct sunlight, it`s hard to tell if there is any. When I work in my driveway, the back end of the car sticks out in the sun, I can see if there`s any there, I can`t on the hood. Even if you could get one vehicle perfect, the chances of going 100% swirl free on 100% of everything you do is very slim. I feel that following up with a PC is the only way to make sure you`ve got every swirl possible out of the car.

The biggest part is keeping the pad 100% flat. This may not be possible for some parts of the car and it`s ok to use the edge for those.

Always move in a different direction. I start opposite the airflow, then alternate diagonals, then finish with airflow. On a door it would look like this- | \ / -- Each time I change direction I lighten up on the pressure. On the very last pass (final pass of the last product you`re using with the rotory) before I move on to a PC, I actually pick up on the buffer a bit to take weight off the pad.

RPM`s- I usually go between 1200-1800. I see no need to go above 2000. Experiment with it, see what works best for you.

Clean pads- Always start with a clean pad. Any abrasive bit in a rotory pad will trash a paint job. This is much more important with wool pads because they can hide things. If I use a wool pad, I use it on 4 vehicles and then toss it. It`s much more important to have a clean pad with a rotory because of the weight applied to and speed of the pad. I`ve also never used alcohol inbetween steps, although I do wipe excess off with a microfiber.

Don`t be affraid- I treat a paint job on a Ferarri just I would on a Metro. You can`t let fear intimidate you. Look at it as polishing paint, not a $250k car.

If you`re really serious about learning on a rotory, get a white Edge finishing pad and a light polish (SSR1, #82) and try it out. You`re using both a light abrasive polish and pad so burning is at a minimum. Junk yards or a friend with a POS car are good places to cut your teeth on.

This weekend I`m doing some paint work and wet sanding an entire car. I`ll do a write up on it and make sure I beg/borrow/steal a digital camera to get some pics. I`ll get some pics trying to show what I just explained.