Souveran over white?

[laefd]

I have a big Toyota Sequoia which is bright white...AIO, followed by SG x2 or UPP x2. Both the SG and UPP add definite pop and I`m very happy the results - UPP is definitely easier to remove (it`s a breeze) whilt the SG takes a bit longer and can be tempermental but the durability and gloss are worth the process...and it has some real nice pop. I`m pleased with the results but want to "play" with some Souveran as a topper. Anyone have any experience with Souveran over white? What can I expect? Will the Souveran actually "darken" the white or simply mute the gloss if at all? What can I expect with Souveran over white?

Thoughts or recommendations?

[John Styrnol]

Would also like to know. According to Mike Phillips over at Meg`s, he say`s that wax is wax, topping any color does not matter. There is no such thing as certain waxes for dark paint or for light paint. He also sez that if the wax looks good on black it will look good on any color.

[Bill D]

I would tend to agree but can`t hurt to try. It`s something I ought to do myself. Pinnacle used to have a wax that is now discontinued called Paste Glaz that was great for white and light colors from what I heard. Signature replaced it and they recommend that now.

Here`s their e mail response to me:

Bill,

Please be advised that the Pinnacle Paste Glaz has been discontinued. It has been replaced with the Pinnacle Signature Series Wax for $31.95. This formula is specifically for light colored and metallic paints.

Feel free to order online or contact a sales representative for more information.


Regards,

Customer Service Dept
Contact us via email:
customersvc@gate.net

[robman]

Where carnubas are concerned I have tried allot of consumer products but Natty`s really adds depth to my White Xterra. Sweet stuff.

[joyriide1113]

i differ on that of wha mike philips said. wax isnt just wax... some carnubas really darken the finsh and take away from the shine. some actually just add gloss to them... topping white with a wax that darkens the finish seems wrong because it would mute the shine that white already barely has. rather i would top white paint over a sealant and put a wax like paste glaz (even tho its discontinued) which brings out a lot of gloss and brightens the paint.

some carnubas are reallt good for dark cars.. #26 makes my green lack shine but the gloss and wetness is remarkable... some waxes are in the ladder.


to each their own. it all depends on personal preference.

to give my opinion souveran takes away no shine (it adds in my case) and will definately perk up that white for a final touch!

[Mike Phillips]

Would also like to know. According to Mike Phillips over at Meg`s, he says that wax is wax, topping any color does not matter. There is no such thing as certain waxes for dark paint or for light paint. He also sez that if the wax looks good on black it will look good on any color.

Hi John,

Actually, in my reply to the question,

I want to know your opinion about the best choice on LSP for light color cars.

In this thread,
Which LSP is Best for Light Colors

I never said,

According to Mike Phillips over at Meg`s, he says that wax is wax, topping any color does not matter.

What I did say was this,

• First of all, 99% of all cars being manufactured today have a clear coat, so keep in mind, most people are not working on a pigmented paint, but on clear paint. Clear paint is simply resin without color.
  
  That said, if a car wax, or polish will make a dark or black colored paint look great, it`s also making a light colored finish look great too it`s just your eyes can`t see the difference. This is why the best test for a product is always on dark colors and black paint specifically. The true results of a product are going to be the most apparent on black paint, whether its a single-stage finish or a clear coated finish.
  
  The color that is the least efficient at demonstrating a difference is white paint, whether it`s a single-stage, or a clear coated finish. This is why Meguiar`s performs all of their testing on black paint.
  
  What you see discussed on forums and elsewhere on the topic of some waxes being better on light colors and some waxes being better on dark colors is simply confusion.
  
  You`ll often read where someone will say,
  
  "Brand X is great on light colors",
  
  what is implied is that brand X doesn`t make dark colors look good. If a wax or polish can`t make a dark color look good, it isn`t making a light color look good, your eyes just can`t evaluate the difference.
  
  The best waxes for appearance quality makes all colors look good and you can know this by whether or not the wax makes dark colors look good.
  
  Think about it for a second, if you have two identical cars, for example two Honda Accura`s. One is white with a clear coat finish and the other is black with a clear coat finish, if a wax makes the black Accura look great, knowing you`re working on the same kind of paint, (a clear coat), it`s reasonable to assume that it`s going to make the white Accura look great, it`s just you`re eyes won`t perceive the difference as easily as they would with the black Accura.
  
  Conversely, if a wax doesn`t make the black Accura look good, it`s reasonable to assume it`s not going to make the white Accura look good for the same reasons outlined above.

I see the question or topic of,

"Which wax is best for light colored cars and which wax is best for dark colored cars?"

Come up all the time, but if a person is working on a clear coated finish, then they`re not working on a colored paint, and thus whether a wax works well or not is not dependent upon the color but upon the wax.

Thus if a wax makes a clear coated black car look good, (the toughest test of any polish or wax type product), then it`s going to work well on any color of paint because in essence, this wax isn`t making black paint look good, it`s making clear paint look its clearest.

Conversely, if a polish or wax type product doesn`t make a clear coated black car look good, then it`s not going to make a light colored clear coated car look good either it`s just the human eye is not senstive enough to see the difference, or actually, lack thereof.

Does that make sense?

To date, no one has ever challenged what I`ve written on this topic, but I think it would be interesting to see someone explain with words how a polish or wax type product that didn`t make a clear coated black paint look good could actually be making a white, or light colored clear coated finish look good.



No harm done John, I just thought I would clarify what I wrote so others wouldn`t draw the wrong conclusion.

[Brenton]

There you go.

My only concern with white is the preparation. If the prep is done well, it seems like a high-oil content wax like Souveran will look nice.

If it doesn`t do well, in high light it will look streaky, simply because white has a way of oxidizing little by little through its lifetime. It also hides a lot of surface things that claying and polishing could fix. Just MHO.

[pogo123]

Well said Mike. I agree with your assesment, but was wondering how (or if) flake changes things? Do you think some waxes or polishes have the ability to make the flake more obvious or reflective? Many people here refer to flake "pop" which can be somewhat confusing.

[Mike Phillips]

Well said Mike. I agree with your assessment, but was wondering how (or if) flake changes things? Do you think some waxes or polishes have the ability to make the flake more obvious or reflective?


Many people here refer to flake "pop" which can be somewhat confusing.

Well, I guess I`ll go against the grain and say that if the clear coat is as clear as it can be, then your eyes will be able to see the flake the easiest. Thus, it`s not about some waxes making flake pop while others waxes not making flake pop, it`s about does the wax make the paint the clearest, most reflective as possible, and richest in color. (Back to what I wrote and referenced above).

My personal opinion, right or wrong, is that a lot of people make too big a deal about the wax making the metallic flakes pop when [I think], it`s actually a function of surface prep that determines how clear the clear coat is and thus how easy or how well your eyes can see the color coat underneath and/or anything in the color coat for example metallic flake or pearl tones, etc.

The exception would be a brand new car or a brand new paint job whereby in a perfect world the paint, (since it`s brand new), should already look it`s best and therefor the flake should pop with no products applied. While this sounds good on paper, (or in pixels), the truth is, even a brand new car or a brand new paint job can be made to look even better with a quality polish or wax type product.

A good wax will definitely take the results you achieved via your surface prep to a higher level with emphasis on the word, good. But this comes back full circle to what I wrote in the linked article about the results you see on a clear coated black finish versus a clear coated white, or light colored finish.

Most of the banter about which waxes make the flake pop is posturing, because in the big picture, on a brand new paint job, or on an older paint job after the prep work has been done, the wax either creates clarity and richness or it doesn`t. If it does, then the flake pops, if it doesn`t, then not only is the flake muted, but the color is muted as well.

A car wax, (or anything applied to paint where the intention is to protect the finish), is not affected by bias or good intentions, it either works and works well or it doesn`t.

My own thoughts...

If a wax, (or a paint protectant by any other name), makes a black finish look it`s best, that is it makes the paint clear, rich in color, glossy and reflective, (whether it`s a single-stage or a basecoat/clearcoat system), then that wax is also going to make a metallic finish pop. If a wax doesn`t make a black finish look it`s best, (as compared to waxes that do), then that wax isn`t going to make the metallic flake pop as well as the wax that made black paint look it`s best.

Does that make sense?

It`s all about the paint and not about us.

[joe.p]

Mike, i didn`t realize you are registered user at DC. The post was very informative and the thread offered some good opinions .

Welcome,
Joe.P
Chicago,Illinois

[Mike Phillips]

Mike, i didn`t realize you are registered user at DC. The post was very informative and the thread offered some good opinions .

Welcome,
Joe.P
Chicago,Illinois

Hi Joe,

Yeah I`m registered here, but I don`t post because I can`t keep up with my normal duties. I lurk here and read posts like so many on all forums, I was sent a link to this thread from another person and mostly wanted to chime in because I didn`t want people to misunderstand what I wrote about my answer to the question on which wax is best for light colors and which wax is best for dark colors, it`s a question that comes up on all detailing discussion forums all over the Internet and I find a lot of opinions on the topic but most of them leave out the fact that 99.9% of a all cars have a clear coat finish, thus how can a wax be better on red or black paint but not as good on white or silver when in fact the cars could all be Hondas, with the same clear coat finish over the different colors underneath.

Anyway, DetailCity is one of the better discussion forums on the Net and that`s because of the leadership which sets the standard for the community as well as the overall atmosphere which is fun and friendly.

Later... I have some typing to do elsewhere...

[Mr_Mark]

I have a big Toyota Sequoia which is bright white...

Great discussion and great info. However, it has all been qualified with "over a clear-coat". Unfortunately, the white Toyota Sequoia (and Tundra) do NOT have clear-coats. Toyota is anonmolous in that it uses clearcoats over all colors EXCEPT "natural white". So, given that in this case the work is directly over paint, does that change the suggestions of which wax (souveran or not) to use? (I have a Tundra with the same paint, so I`m curious too!!) Thanks.

[Mike Phillips]

Great discussion and great info. However, it has all been qualified with "over a clear-coat". Unfortunately, the white Toyota Sequoia (and Tundra) do NOT have clear-coats. Toyota is anomalous in that it uses clearcoats over all colors EXCEPT "natural white". So, given that in this case the work is directly over paint, does that change the suggestions of which wax (Souveran or not) to use? (I have a Tundra with the same paint, so I`m curious too!!) Thanks.

My guess that the reason they don`t clear their white finishes is because the pigment used to make white paint white in the past has been titanium dioxide which is a very hard substance which in turn adds hardness to the paint, this then makes the paint more durable and less resistant to deterioration as compared to a single stage black paint which historically has used carbon black, (soot), which is very soft and which then adulterates, or changes the resin to make the paint softer.

If you go back and read my first reply in the below thread,

Which LSP is Best for Light Colors


I actually do cover the single stage paint scenario but in a nutshell, if a wax makes a single stage black or dark colored finish look good then it`s going to make any color look good. If a wax does not make a single stage black or dark colored finish look good, (as compared to a wax that does do this), then it`s not going to make a light colored single stage finish look good it`s just most human eyes are not going to be able to distinguish the difference, or the lack of increased beauty because the light colored finish won`t easily show this fall-off in performance.