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  1. #31

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    Re: 2008 Saturn - which polish?

    Thanks to all of you.
    Today I did receive the "TW Hybrid Solutions Ceramic Polish & Wax".
    But I still don`t understand the need for "TW Hybrid Solutions Ceramic Spray Coating" in addition to the product I have now.
    Help with that, please.
    I read on the container of the Polish & Wax that I should wait 24hours before applying the Spray Coating, but I don`t understand what the Spray Coating will do for me that the Polish and Wax does not do.
    And - reminder - I really don`t want to do a big wax job more than about once per year.

  2. #32

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    Re: 2008 Saturn - which polish?

    cwr64- The use of a "Topper" like the Spray (in this case the Spray on top of the Polish & Wax) is to add more protection. JUST protection (the Polish & Wax has, well...abrasive Polish..in it along with the protection of the "Wax" part). That Topper can be reapplied quickly/easily to extend the base protection of the P & W so it will last longer. Even if you didn`t mind the work, you don`t want to use an abrasive polish very often as it can thin the clearcoat. I`d think of that as your "Big Annual Job".
    Likes SWETM liked this post

  3. #33

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    Re: 2008 Saturn - which polish?

    Thanks Accumulator. I`m afraid that a couple of spots on the front roof of the car just above the windshield may have gone a bit too long without protection and the clearcoat and paint may be beyond redemption. Hoping for the best but we`ll see.
    I would begin work on the car today but it`s rainy and humid and the car needs a wash. Even in my unheated garage the humidity is high and I just don`t like trying to polish a car when humidity is high.

  4. #34

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    Re: 2008 Saturn - which polish?

    cwr64- Agree completely about the humidity! Nothing but trouble there...

    Even if the clear is compromised in those areas, it`s well worth giving the car a great detail and trying to keep it that way. Consider this:

    By the time I talked the original owner of my `93 Audi into selling it to me it was in *TERRIBLE* condition (elderly woman`s winter car...you can imagine ). Its rich dark blue paint was so oxidized that the service records called it "gray" and it has numerous areas of complete clearcoat failure, a few are down to *primer*. BUT...after a Big Detail over a *decade ago* [Accumulator pats self on back ] it still looks so good that strangers come up to me regularly to compliment me on my "old showcar" (their usual assumption, but when did a `93 become "old"?!?). Yeah, an Autopian might say "oughta repaint it", but to the rest of The Real World, it looks wonderful.

    Get it as nice as you can. KEEP it as nice as you can. I bet you`ll pleasantly surprise yourself

  5. #35

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    Re: 2008 Saturn - which polish?

    Well, today I got after it after the sun came out and warmed things up. I used the TW ceramic polish & wax with my DA polisher. I did the trunk lid, the roof, and the front hood. The hood and trunk lid are not perfect but are not too bad. Maybe the paint was actually too hot - news said that it reached nearly 90 degrees this afternoon and I was working on a black car in direct sunlight, and the sheet metal got quite hot. The TW instructions said nothing about heat or shade. I did a couple of areas beneath the side windows where the paint was fairly good and those areas looked fantastic after the waxing. But the roof seems to have a big problem. As I look at the polished roof I see thousands/millions of tiny - maybe - pits in the finished surface. From a distance it looks fairly good but close up at an angle it looks pretty bad. In a couple of roof sections I tried extra polish with extra machine polishing but it made no difference. Any idea what to do? Also, I found it VERY difficult to EVENLY remove the haze after I polished sections. I tried to use only a little product but on those top surfaces, using the micro-fiber cloth, it still left slightly discolored marks where-ever the polisher had tracked. It did not seem to matter how much or little product was used or how much I ran the polisher in those areas.
    So, some success but I about killed myself trying to wipe off the haze.

  6. #36

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    Re: 2008 Saturn - which polish?

    Quote Originally Posted by cwr64 View Post
    Well, today I got after it after the sun came out and warmed things up...
    That warmth from the sun probably caused the difficulties. Hot panels + Detailing = Trouble.

    ... Maybe the paint was actually too hot - news said that it reached nearly 90 degrees this afternoon and I was working on a black car in direct sunlight, and the sheet metal got quite hot./
    You don`t want the panels to get hot when you`re doing this stuff. I know, easier said than done, but still..

    If unavoidable, I`d be working *VERY* small areas at a time, and I sure don`t mean something 2` square. And I`d stick with products that reputable Autopians say will work OK in direct sun (assuming such products exist).

    ..The TW instructions said nothing about heat or shade..
    They probably assume nobody will use it in direct sun.

    the roof seems to have a big problem. As I look at the polished roof I see thousands/millions of tiny - maybe - pits in the finished surface. From a distance it looks fairly good but close up at an angle it looks pretty bad...
    Early signs of clearcoat failure. You won`t make that better, and/but you could easily make it worse. DO NOT ABRADE IT FURTHER. You want...need...all the clear that`s left to keep the deterioration from accelerating.

    Hey, my beaters had that kind of damage when I got `em ages ago and they`re still no worse so it`s not inevitable that the paint will completely fail any time soon, but being outside all the time sure won`t help.

    In a couple of roof sections I tried extra polish with extra machine polishing but it made no difference. Any idea what to do?
    Taking off more paint isn`t what you want to do at this point, and it could precipitate wholesale failure.

    Keep it well-LSPed, preferably with something that resists UV, and keep your fingers crossed. In a perfect world you`d limit its UV exposure as much as possible. The clock is ticking on the need to repaint so try to slow that down, not speed it up.

    Also, I found it VERY difficult to EVENLY remove the haze after I polished sections. I tried to use only a little product but on those top surfaces, using the micro-fiber cloth, it still left slightly discolored marks where-ever the polisher had tracked. It did not seem to matter how much or little product was used or how much I ran the polisher in those areas.
    So, some success but I about killed myself trying to wipe off the haze.
    It oughta wipe off almost effortlessly. These days, most *EVERY* product oughta be that easy unless something goes haywire.

    Noting that I`ve never used that TW product, such issues probably come from the heat and working too-large areas.

    Again, if you`re gonna work in such conditions you`ll need a product (if it exists) that`ll accommodate that heat and not flash off quickly and be hard to buff away.

    Sorry if the above isn`t too useful...you have a big challenge there with your working conditions and after decades in climate-controlled shops I`m sure no authority on how to deal with them

  7. #37

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    Re: 2008 Saturn - which polish?

    Wiping off effortlessly ... It did wipe off easily in areas where the paint/finish was good in the first place- like on the side of the car right below the side windows. I did not keep on going because I was too wiped out from trying to get the "haze" off the top areas that I mentioned. Those tough areas still show some marking where no amount of rubbing with the microfiber cloths make it look right. Maybe someone will reply who has had experience working outdoors in sun/heat with this fairly new TW product. I tried to get a response from both TW Customer Service and TW sales as to which of their new TW products I should use but neither ever replied -and now it has been two weeks (shame on them). I`ll work on the remainder of my car as time and my ambition (now reduced) permit. There is room in my garage for a car now that the Christmas bins have been emptied and stacked out of the way. Meanwhile I`ll order the TW spray you guys recommended.

  8. #38

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    Re: 2008 Saturn - which polish?

    Quote Originally Posted by cwr64 View Post
    Wiping off effortlessly ... It did wipe off easily in areas where the paint/finish was good in the first place- like on the side of the car right below the side windows. I did not keep on going because I was too wiped out from trying to get the "haze" off the top areas that I mentioned. Those tough areas still show some marking where no amount of rubbing with the microfiber cloths make it look right. Maybe someone will reply who has had experience working outdoors in sun/heat with this fairly new TW product. I tried to get a response from both TW Customer Service and TW sales as to which of their new TW products I should use but neither ever replied -and now it has been two weeks (shame on them). I`ll work on the remainder of my car as time and my ambition (now reduced) permit. There is room in my garage for a car now that the Christmas bins have been emptied and stacked out of the way. Meanwhile I`ll order the TW spray you guys recommended.
    I`m not totaly certain but think that when you wipe off the TW HS Ceramic Polish and Wax when you have polished a panel. You actually need to be spraying a couple of spritzes with water on it. This both helps with the removal and also so you activate the LSP in the polish. To spray water or a QD on most worked polishes will help you remove it easier. But with this product it`s recommend and needed to be spraying water on it before you wipe it off or just after you have wiped off most of it. Does it says anything about this in the description on the bottle?

    Usually you don`t want to work the polish to much when used in the direct sunlight. And use a little extra polish on the pad. It`s usually a sweet spot when to wipe off a polish. As if you work it to little or to much it gets much harder to wipe it off. This can varies between polishes too so it`s a trial and error. In your case with a troubled clearcoat you can get a whole other experience when wiping the polish off so thinking it`s much cause of the condition of the paint you polishing that gets it harder to wipe it off. But a spray bottle with destilled water to help you get it easier off. Or if you have a damped mf towel and wipe it off and do a second pass with a dry mf towel to buff it up could work too. It`s not an easy task you are doing with both a weared clearcoat and in direct sunlight usually makes a big difference when it comes to the user friendlyness. Hope it`s helps a little to understand it.

    / Tony

  9. #39

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    Re: 2008 Saturn - which polish?

    Stuff I don`t know about this TW product that might be of importance:

    - Do the abrasives diminish? I.e., do you have to "work it long enough" for it to work right?
    - Since it leaves LSP-stuff behind, should it be allowed to dry/flash off completely before buffing?
    - Will spritzing on water/etc. to aid in residue removal cause issues with that LSP-stuff?

    cw64- Some thoughts about how certain sections went a *lot* easier than others and about the residual flaws:

    - If the sides were consistently easier, maybe it`s because they didn`t heat up as much in the sun and/or it wasn`t as directly on those sections
    - The pitting/etc. will indeed make things a little bit tougher, but IME it`s not a *huge* diff..maybe you treated those areas differently since they appeared to need more work?
    - Even without seeing it, I`m confident that no matter what you do, you won`t make a night/day difference on the areas where the clear is already compromised. It`s simply damage that can only be fixed with a paintgun and that you`ll have to live with until if/when you go that route. Get the whole car done to whatever extent is genuinely doable (easy for us to spend your time/effort as well as your money but you`re the guy actually investing in this, so I hope you expend your resources the way *you* think best). The upside is that nobody will see/care about that stuff except for you, the rest of the world will just see a "clean shiny car", which oughta be a good improvement over its Before condition.

  10. #40

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    Re: 2008 Saturn - which polish?

    I have the container in my hand and I can say that it says nothing about applying in direct sunlight. I DOES say to avoid hot surfaces and for sure I applied the product on a very hot car roof. Shame on me. I felt the roof late yesterday afternoon and I can now say that I am not certain the defects are pits. I can feel the almost-microscopic defects with my fingernails and it is possible the defects are tiny bumps rather than pits - but it is surprising that extra machining and rubbing with microfiber towel did not kill the defects at all.
    Instructions say " Use a damp microfiber cloth to remove high spots (not sure what they mean by "high spots") and activate shine polymers". I did try using a damp microfiber cloth as directed and it seemed to do exactly nothing.
    I will use higher magnification eyeglasses today to try to determine whether defects are pits or bumps.

    Question unrelated: Using the polisher with Griot`s pink foam pads and Maguires conditioning spray. After about 15 minutes I noticed that the pad got pretty well "loaded" with the product, so I switched to a 2nd pink pad to continue work. Is that pad loading something I should avoid and change to a fresh pad more often or does it not really matter? Can the 1st pad be cleaned and put back into rotation while still damp from water?
    Last edited by cwr64; 12-03-2019 at 07:33 AM. Reason: add question about pad loading

  11. #41
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    Re: 2008 Saturn - which polish?

    Here is TW`s video on the polish.

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  12. #42

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    Re: 2008 Saturn - which polish?

    Quote Originally Posted by cwr64 View Post
    I have the container in my hand and I can say that it says nothing about applying in direct sunlight. I DOES say to avoid hot surfaces and for sure I applied the product on a very hot car roof. Shame on me...
    They probablydidn`t expect anybody to use it in direct sunlight. And no, you shouldn`t use such products on a hot surface...I realize that makes it tricky for you.

    I felt the roof late yesterday afternoon and I can now say that I am not certain the defects are pits. I can feel the almost-microscopic defects with my fingernails and it is possible the defects are tiny bumps rather than pits - but it is surprising that extra machining and rubbing with microfiber towel did not kill the defects at all.
    Remember that you`re basically just sanding the surface when you use a Polish. Those defects are almost certainly all the way through the paint..down into the primer...and you`re not gonna fix them by abrading the surface; you`d run out of paint first.

    Even "regular marring" like swirls/etc. are often *MUCH* harder to remove than most people would ever expect, so it`s not just you. This is probably a *good* thing as you could do some real damage, like..precipitate the need for prompt repainting...if what you`re doing were more aggressive.

    Instructions say " Use a damp microfiber cloth to remove high spots (not sure what they mean by "high spots") and activate shine polymers". I did try using a damp microfiber cloth as directed and it seemed to do exactly nothing.
    If there were no high spots then that "did nothing" sounds normal, but maybe somebody who really knows this product will chime in.

    ..I will use higher magnification eyeglasses today to try to determine whether defects are pits or bumps.
    Good idea, but whichever they are you should almost certainly quit abrading it as taking off more clear can greatly hasten complete failure.

    Next time, do the magnified inspection *first*, IMO it`s always a good starting point before you do anything (except clean the surface so you can better evaluate it).

    Question unrelated: Using the polisher with Griot`s pink foam pads and Maguires conditioning spray. After about 15 minutes I noticed that the pad got pretty well "loaded" with the product, so I switched to a 2nd pink pad to continue work. Is that pad loading something I should avoid and change to a fresh pad more often or does it not really matter? Can the 1st pad be cleaned and put back into rotation while still damp from water?
    I don`t know if this product will work OK with a damp pad, some do/some don`t. But a damp pad almost always changes how an abrasive product behaves, and that might complicate things for you.

    I don`t know, for instance, whether you should use the Meguiar`s Conditioning Spray. I myself DO NOT use such stuff with the products I have; I apply them to a fresh dry pad without doing anything to condition that pad, but that`s just me and the stuff I use.

    I would *NEVER* do even one panel without thoroughly cleaning the pad or getting out a new one. I *LITERALLY* spend more time doing that and inspecting my work than I do running the polisher. I can`t even remember the last time I did *half* of a small panel without attending to the pad. As soon as it gets loaded up (even a little) with used product and cut-off clearcoat its behavior changes for the worse.

    I basically want my pads to seem "fresh and clean, just like new" every time I put the polisher on my paint. Like...do a few passes, stop to buff off the residue and inspect, then attend to the pad even though it only did a brief amount of work. I`d sure never add more abrasive/paint-cleaning product without cleaning/replacing a pad although it can be OK to do when just LSPing.

    This "always use a nice clean pad" is *NOT* one of those "just me" things..it`s very important whenever using an abrasive or anything else that can build up a used-product residue on the pad. You want the pores of the pad to be "open" and for the pad to have only the appropriate amount of product on it... and only product, no cut-off clearcoat.

    Sorry if all this makes it sound like a huge PIA, but I`m trying to head off future headaches and confusion. I suspect you`re starting to see how/why this stuff can be challenging, but other than requiring time, the right mindset, and good inspection lighting/techniques, it`s really not all *that* tricky. It`s basically just the auto equivalent of sanding a piece of wood smooth (the polishing) before you varnish it (the LSPing). As with sanding wood, you can only take paint *off* and you don`t want to do too much of that lest you end up taking off too much.

  13. #43

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    Re: 2008 Saturn - which polish?

    @Accumulator

    " I myself DO NOT use such stuff with the products I have; I apply them to a fresh dry pad without doing anything to condition that pad,"

    Approximately how many fresh polishing pads would you use to do an entire car like mine? Sounds like I need to buy more pads.

  14. #44
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  15. #45

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    Re: 2008 Saturn - which polish?

    Quote Originally Posted by cwr64 View Post
    @Accumulator

    " I myself DO NOT use such stuff with the products I have; I apply them to a fresh dry pad without doing anything to condition that pad,"

    Approximately how many fresh polishing pads would you use to do an entire car like mine? Sounds like I need to buy more pads.
    Considering this is a one-step job (not a 1) Compound, 2) Refine, 3) Finish Polish type job) on a car that needs a lot of work, if doing it with one type of pad I`d probably want about 8 of them. And I myself would spread the work out over a rather extended period of time.

    I realize that sounds extreme, and expensive! But foam pads load up and are a PIA to clean on-the-fly. I`ll scrub a foam pad with a white cotton towel a couple times before retiring/properly cleaning it, but they load up to where that`s not enough pretty fast. (MF pads are much better and can be cleaned quite well with an air compressor).

    There`s simply no way I could overstate how important I believe this is. To me, the only limiting factor with regard to "how many pads?" is, basically...$.

    But leave those compromised areas alone now that you`ve done a bit of work on them. You`ve already discovered (what IMO indicates) that you`ll only make things worse by abrading them more, so now it`s just a matter of learning to live with the damage and keeping it protected so it doesn`t get worse quickly.

 

 
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