Asking DavidB to Elaborate (Longevity)

[Setec Astronomy]

David, in a recent post you suggested certain longevities for wax/sealant/paint, which has piqued my curiosity. I am simply trying to understand what you have said.




Carnauba lasts 30-45 days in a good environment. Typical sealants last 60-120 days at best. Your paint finish may continue to shine, bead water or be slick, but that has little to do with protection.



Since some of us determine the level of protection by shine, beading or slickness, this statement alarms me. Are you saying that after the "protection" is gone, the paint continues to shine, bead and be slick due to the polishing that we have done prior to applying the protection? But is no longer protected?






No one has invented a protective coating that`s harder or more durable than your clearcoat, and you loose an average of .0005 inch of paint thickness yearly on an unprotected finish. I`m sorry, but no wax/sealant coating comes close to .0005 inch.

What does this mean? That the paint dusts off to that amount? Or oxidizes and is permanently damaged? At that rate, you would be through the clear in 4-5 years. (BTW, great comment about the wax/sealant thickness; I don`t think I have ever heard anyone state that there is ANY measureable thickness to the layer of wax/sealant, even when "layered", which makes it a fraction of our "fragile" clearcoat, at best.)



Perhaps you can see where I am going with this--am I looking at my shining, beading, slick surface, thinking it is protected....when in actuality I am looking at it be permanently damaged?!?!

[Bill D]

I have felt similarly recently when I was told that beading does not in fact indicate whether or not a LSP is still present on a finish and that in fact, ( and understanding that brand new or highly polished, unprotected paint alone beads as well)certain ingredients responsible for the beading may diminish but that does not mean the product in its entirety has depleted. Talk about confusing :confused:. I`m not necessarily sure I buy that because what this assumption is saying is that there is no for-sure way of determining product durability without the use of sophisticated equipment. Without the use of our own observation ( watching changes in beading or, in some cases, sheeting) we must totally rely on the product claims/specification for how long it lasts--which is fine but I assume many of us want to "see things with our own eyes"



So as a rule of thumb, if I were focusing on my LSP durability, as soon as I see a change in the appearance of beading, whether or not that simply means the "beading agents" only are starting to weaken, it would be time for me to reapply. If the finish simply "doesn`t look right or best", that perception alone would also prompt me to reapply Simple, yes. Accurate or scientific? I can`t say about accuracy and definitely not scientific. Overall, it`s not a very big issue for me because my finish has always looked good and has evidenced resistance to damage from the elements when topped with a sealant "in the league" of those discussed here and when conditions are permissible, I top with a beautifying, but not very long lasting wax routinely.

[ZaneO]

My opinion is that no matter what a product contains (beading agents, oils, silicone, polymers, etc.), as long as it is present on the paint, there will be increased surface tension, which should provide measureable beading.



Sure, fresh paint will bead. Those beads are measureable and allow for comparison to the beads when a wax/sealant is present.



Some say that protection/product is still left when beading stops...I say prove it.



Just my $.02 :)

[Bill D]

Zane O, yes, absolutely, I sure would like to see proof--apparently only capable when measuring with a sophisticated "glossometer" or similar device.

[Bobby G]

You`re asking a lot of different questions. So, I will try to answer each as best as possible.



First, let`s talk about unprotected paint. We`ve all seen a dull, oxidized finish. Taken to the extreme, oxidation will "eat" paint all the way down to the panel. It`s not uncommon to see some 1990`s vintage cars with bumper caps that have no remaining paint due to exposure and lack of protection.



The rate that exposure eats paint varies widely, but my experience shows that .0005 inch/year is about average. This said, a new paint finish will be destroyed with 5-8 years of exposure without protection or care.



Protective coatings are meant to be sacrificial. This is not a negative statementâ€Â¦ it is positive. By giving oxidation something to eat besides your paint, you are saving your paint from its ravages. The whole notion that you will wax a car once a year because the paint still beads water is to ignore the facts regarding oxidation and paint wear.



Detailing clay has made a huge impact in paint finish care because it removes oxidation and allows the paint to remain healthy, longer. Applying a coating over a paint finish does not stop the oxidation, it only slows it down a bit. Waxes with cleaners are better for your paint finish than those without, because they strip away some oxidation and allow the coating to get a better âہ“gripâ€Â� to retard oxidation. Those of us who properly prep the paint finish prior to waxing do not need these cleaners, but they still help.



Now, on to specifics with regards to coatings. Carnauba wax, bees wax, paraffin wax, and many synthetic wax derivatives, used in common âہ“waxesâ€Â� have a melting point below 200 degrees (f). Your car gets warmer than this each time you take it out on a sunny day. As a result, these soft waxes begin to burn off very rapidly. You donâ€â„¢t notice the burn off, because itâ€â„¢s not the wax that creates the high gloss and slickness. The gloss and slickness are caused by other agents, primarily oils. The oils hang much longer than the wax itself. This is not a bad thing, as the oil does retard oxidation.



The next question that should come to mind is âہ“Can a coating loose its slickness and still be offering protection?â€Â� The answer is YES! Some wax makers make the mistake of pumping up gloss and slickness agents that are quickly washed away, even though the protective agents remain. This makes the user think that protection is gone, when really itâ€â„¢s the high gloss agent thatâ€â„¢s gone.



A better test of paint protection is feel. If your paint finish continues to feel smooth, itâ€â„¢s because oxidation is not highly active and contamination is not sticking. I will publish more information on this theory when I finish my long-term salt air/UV exposure test next month.

[togwt]

Durability:

[: Able to exist for a long time without significant deterioration] If your goal is maximum protection, don`t use water beading as an indicator; while its true that it is a visual indicator that a wax / sealant previously applied is still present it does not guarantee that its actually providing protection.



a)Water beading- although you cannot equate a products beading ability to protection and durability, if an applied product continues to `bead` water, one wash after another, then that would prove that whatever it is that is causing high surface tension is not washing off.

b)Water bead definition-convex beads that have a small, tight symmetrical shape.

c)Indications that the products durability may be diminishing-when the water beads become noticeably larger in diameter with a flat irregular shape usually indicate that the surface tension of the wax or sealant is diminishing. Or when dust, dirt or bug residue becomes more difficult to wipe off with a quick detailing spray are indications that its time to renew the protection

Slickness-slide a micro fibre towel across a horizontal surface to see how much resistance there is, if there has been a significant reduction from what you experienced previously the durability is probably diminishing



Scientificâ€Â¦not in the least but without sophisticated instruments and testing it all most of us have available

[Accumulator]

David B- I hope your post puts some of the [misconceptions] about protection to rest :xyxthumbs



I also hope that people note that if you can`t go by many of the "usual indicators" because the paint is often *still protected*, then *going* by those indicators will quite possibly mean you`re merely erring on the side of caution. Those of us with older cars that still have the original paint know that it`s not *really* all that hard to preserve it.



TOGWT- Yeah, I agree. I don`t understand why people insist that anything beyond basic observation is necessary to have a generally/sufficiently accurate gauge of how things are holding up.



Setec- IMO if you, as an "Autopian" (i.e., automotive enthusiast focusing on detailing) *think* it`s protected, it probably is. We take such better care of our vehicles than the average consumer that they`re gonna hold up just fine (as long as we don`t polish off too much paint by continually abrading it). I know plenty of people with old cars that still have the original paint, and these (often elderly) folks don`t come *close* to our level of involvement in this stuff. They just use mild products regularly and all is well. No, they aren`t as perfectly marring free as some of our cars, but the paint is smooth, slick, shiny, and....still there.

[stilez]

David: That`s very interesting as the universal tester has always been beading. I`m looking forward to the article.

[Scottwax]

I would think if you polish and waxed a vehicle that was absolutely not beading beforehand, as long as it is beading afterward, there is protection on the paint.

[Detailr75]

1. I don`t think wax "burns off" or even evaporates. The volatile compounds mixed with it (for workability, beadability, etc) do evaporate. I think wax wears off, in the wind and weather. Faster when it`s warm of course, but a garage queen should lose no actual wax. I`m basing this opinion on experience with paraffin and beeswax. It would be easy to test on carnauba - put a bit of Zymol or Megs #16 in an open film can, weigh it with a very accurate beam scale (from a high-school science lab), expose it to air and sunlight (but not to wind and rain), and weigh it again every day. It should get lighter as the volatiles evaporate. Eventually a hard dry bit of virtually pure carnauba will remain, and the weight should then remain constant. If my hypothesis is correct. A similar experiment could be devised to test the wind and wear hypothesis, by exposing the film can to a constant flow of air (maybe inside an a/c duct), or water (under a leaky faucet perhaps).



2. Equipment exists that can directly observe oxidation, swirl marks, thickness of fillers, thickness of base (AIO) and LSP layers, etc. Fab lines that make integrated circuit chips have equipment that is way more powerful than would be needed for this application. But, who has thought to use it for such a "frivolous" pursuit as shiny cars??



Hope I`m not stepping too hard on any toes...

[imported_The Uncle]

Wow! I really can`t express the level of admiration I have for the scientific approach that you guys take to detailing.

[Accumulator]

Originally posted by Clutch Cargo

1. I don`t think wax "burns off" or even evaporates. The volatile compounds mixed with it (for workability, beadability, etc) do evaporate. I think wax wears off, in the wind and weather. Faster when it`s warm of course, but a garage queen should lose no actual wax.



Hope I`m not stepping too hard on any toes...



Not stepping on *my* toes at all!



Wax can indeed last a long time on a garage queen as long as it stays in the garage. With 17K miles on my `85 Jag, I know from garage queens :D



But when I actually *drive* the thing, between the extreme heat from the V12 and the heat from the sun, my preferred wax (Souveran) doesn`t last long at all. It really does burn/evaporate away in no time. I often believe I have to rewax the hood after a weekend`s use in the summer. I can sometimes even see an actual pattern from how the heat radiates through the hood from underneath if I drive it long enough between waxings (it was my daily driver when I first got it). Don`t know what is going away and what might still be on there, but it certainly needs redone. Let it go long enough and I have to polish it due to oxidation.



I`ve never experienced an appreciable wind/etc. wear phenomenon, but that could just be the environment in which I operate my vehicles and the frequency with which I reapply my LSPs. People living in dusty, arid conditions like the desert SW mention it all the time.

[Detailr75]

I see now that I`ve really gotten too academic on this one. Whether it wears off or evaporates off, whether the volatiles are being lost or the wax itself -- we put it on there because we want all of it -- all the slickness, shine, depth, etc. Protection is a secondary issue, for Autopians at least. In fact, I bet protection is important only to people who are satisfied with the shine that new paint comes with, not the kind of shine that can be achieved from a fine detailing job.



Guessing and speculating again...

[Bill D]

Clutch Cargo,



Yeah, I thought that of Autopians too but I see an awful lot of discussion about durability :nixweiss. ( Understandable this time of year of course)I`m more along the lines of how you describe: the shine, the depth, the beauty. Since I`ve gone back to carnauba, waxing--seeing the beauty re emerge before my eyes, is the main event of detailing for me.

[Bobby G]

I`ve done enough testing with Carnauba waxes to know they do evaporate when heated. The dissipation of the wax is exacerbated by wind and UV radiation. Many sealants exhibit the same kind of response. However, as I said in my first post, you want the wax coating to be sacrificial. Out in the air, heat and UV, something has got to give.



In the concealed environment of a good garage, Carnauba lasts a long, long time making it excellent on show cars and garage queens.