Resolution and Durability Question

[ZaneO]

I am having a conversation with someone on another forum about sealants, carnaubas, "resolution," and durability.



Honestly, I don`t know how one would define resolution in terms of a waxed/sealed finish, but here`s some highlights from the conversation:



"My carnauba finishes have lasted through typical eastern seaboard winters when they were accumulated properly during a warm season (including rain and snow...uncovered!). If you ask the more experienced detailers, many will prefer a carnauba`s resolution over a typical synthetic because the better carnaubas can develop a sharper resolution and greater depth of shine.



However, when I compared those finishes to very good (not talking about exotic yet) carnauba finishes, the carnaubas were not only sharper, but the reflections were clearer and deeper. The high end carnaubas such as P21s, Pinnacle, and Zymol, in my opinion, will outperform most waxes and synthetics, given with similar finishes."





"All waxes will improve a resolution over a surface with no wax on it. There have been countless tests to ascertain this.



Now, in terms of my wax lasting several months. Carnauba by itself doesn`t wear or wash away by rain or water. Carnauba contains by products which will promote beading and gloss qualities in the wax resolution, that will in time wear away. The actual wax residue sinks beneath the outer layers of the paint and coats the surface, which in time with oxidation, will become dirty in appearance and will need to be removed with a cleaner.



I will usually start in the spring by a deep cleaning with a paint cleaner, followed by a polish, and then topping it off with one coat of wax. From april until november, I will build my resolution very slowly by applying one coat of wax per waxing session (a lot of people make the mistake of putting three or more coats on at one time, which tends to lose its beading quality much faster), and allowing the wax to dry. I`ve found by doing this, the wax surface hardens and maintains its shine longer. The hardened wax will also accept additional coats better. By November I have found that the paint surface has built up adequate amounts of wax, which has usually lasted through winter until April when I remove it and start new."





I`ve never had a quality carnauba last more than a couple of months (in good weather). I`ve also never seen a carnauba add "resolution." I guess they could all just be personal observations.



What are some opinions on this?

[audipower]

I use to be a carnuba only guy until my uncle showed me the secret to depth "resolution" and the best possible shine. He taught me about the importance of preping and how to use sealents. He owns 4 Camaro`s. 2 are the 1st made there year (`67, `71) and the other 2 where actual Indy Pace cars. His `67 was named the best `67 camaro on earth by Cheverolet.

I went and visited him and I begged him to show me how he got his cars to look like do. He says the mistake many classic car owners do is not prep the paint. Especially not claying and use the right polishes (to harsh, or to light) and he told me a sealent (uses SG) is the most important to add long term depth and shine. He added SG makes wax look it`s best with 3x coats of SG. He taught me to PC SG on light and then leave it on for 24 hrs and then MF bonnet it off, then do 3 total coats like that. After your done with the last coat wait a day and then do a coat of carnuba with NO cleaners (P21S) and like Zane Oliver says allow a day to apply another coat. To optimize total cure or dryness.

His `67 looks bad azz after this and so does my Audi. Especially, when it`s orange with a killer black racing stripe down the middle. I`ll get a pick. Then, he puts a coat of P21S day before a show (3to4 times a year) and wipes it down with a little Sonus.



Zane is right. Carnuba last "nicely" for a month then flake off. It for sure doesn`t add depth ("resolution"). I never seen depth till SG. I would love to speak to a chemical engineer from Sonus or Zaino. To see what they say about this. I just believe Sealent allows the wax to layer smothely and more accuretly then on just paint. It doesn`t last longer (my experiences), but gives the paint resolution not carnuba alone can`t do.



Does anybody know of any websites or articles that an "expert" carnuba wax chemist wrote about this? Sorry my writing sucks!

[imported_BretFraz]

Ask the guy to define "resolution". Don`t help him with ideas, just let him respond.



Also ask how he is measuring "resolution". What is a test methodology? How does he insure repeatability? What tools or devices does he use to test his theories?



Any test or comparison is totally worthless unless the tester has developed a method to consistently repeat the test and has a quantifiable way to measure and compare results.

[TortoiseAWD]

Originally posted by bretfraz

Ask the guy to define "resolution". Don`t help him with ideas, just let him respond.



Also ask how he is measuring "resolution". What is a test methodology? How does he insure repeatability? What tools or devices does he use to test his theories?



Any test or comparison is totally worthless unless the tester has developed a method to consistently repeat the test and has a quantifiable way to measure and compare results. Then ask him for a link or reference to just one of those "countless studies" that support his position.



Tort

[ZaneO]

Okay, let me make one clarification before we go on. The entire quotes above were from the same individual (not me, out of respect, I am leaving his name out). Sorry, I didn`t make that more clear.



Here is some of the "evidence" he provided to me:



"I can give you a link to start with (http://www.porschepark.org/garage/ta00007.html). You should also check out a recent wax test by Guru Publications "The Wax Test, 2003." Guru did an in depth test where they measured the depth of resolution, longevity and beading sizes of waxes and sealants."

[Lowejackson]

The actual wax residue sinks beneath the outer layers of the paint....



This is the first time I have read where wax penetrates the paint, presumabley this means the wax goes through the clearcoat first :nixweiss

[Accumulator]

Originally posted by bretfraz

Ask the guy to define "resolution". Don`t help him with ideas, just let him respond.



Yeah, that would be amusing all right :xyxthumbs



I also got a laugh out of his "The actual wax residue sinks beneath the outer layers of the paint and coats the surface.." :rolleyes: :p



But really, this is like the guy who was arguing with Anthony about a "ten year sealant". Arguing with these [individuals] is a wast of time.

[ZaneO]

I`m not doing this in an attempt to slam this guy in any way. I was just confused by some of these thoughts and wanted to get some opinions.

[imported_BretFraz]

That Porschepark link takes you to an article written by Larry Reynolds of Car Care Specialities. While Larry is a very knowledgable person, he is very anti-sealant and some of his views are antiquated, such as his dislike of paint cleaning clay.



It appears Mr. Resolution has done NOTHING on his own w.r.t. developing an independent test methodolgy, since he is using commentary and research done by others to "prove" his points. I agree the wise thing to do is stay away from him.

[RedondoV6]

Originally posted by ZaneO

I`m not doing this in an attempt to slam this guy in any way. I was just confused by some of these thoughts and wanted to get some opinions.



What is there to say .... some people talk out of their mouth`s, others talk out of their ......

[ZaneO]

Originally posted by RedondoV6

What is there to say .... some people talk out of their mouth`s, others talk out of their ......



Unfortunately, that`s true too often.

[audipower]

He`s looking at the research and flipping it to make his point look true. It`s like with the Bible. You have different religions and different churches that take different things from the Bible and put it to there beliefs. They take one scripture and every church has a different definition to it.

Some people just like to argue and believe in different things to be different. It`s like talking to a wall. Even if it`s over wax and clay.

Praise the Lord, Halleuhah!!!

[togwt]

~One manâ€â„¢s opinion / observations~



Polymer and Carnauba differences:



a) Polymer sealant- comprises an open linked molecule; these open linked polymer molecules join together to create an elongated mesh like effect that reflects light efficiently due to their inherent flat surface. Because they are usually very transparent they transmit the surface colour faithfully, but they have very little depth resulting in what is perceived as a very bright, flat silver glow.



b) Carnauba wax- molecules are closed linked, which means that they only butt up together to protect the surface. These wax molecules form an egg-grate type (with the long axis vertical) mesh over the smaller paint molecules of the paint film surface, which gives it an optical depth.



Bear in mind that the aesthetics of a vehicles appearance is very subjective to say the least



Longevity of Carnauba wax?

Through dissipation Carnauba wax are limited in their protecting capabilities. More specifically, these wax compounds have low melting points ranging from as low as 128 â€â€œ180 degree. F. When the temperature of the painted surface exceeds the melting point of the compound applied thereon, the waxes will melt from a hard wax to oil. When this occurs, the waxes are easily washed off and, more importantly, will pick up dust particles and other air pollutants.



In actual practice, the temperature frequently leads to melting of the wax compounds. For example, painted surfaces exposed to ambient temperatures of 80 oF in direct sunlight, will rise up to a temperature of 185degree F or more. Consequently, the extremely fine film of wax covering the peaks of the painted surface is very quickly dissipated, leaving them exposed to the elements to become oxidized. If the paint finishes contain silver or aluminium metallic particles, then the wax coatings would provide little or no protection, since the metallic particles retain more heat and, therefore, rapidly destroy the protection of the waxes.



~Hope this helps~



Knowledge unshared is experience wasted [each one / teach one]

justadumbarchitect / so I question everything/ JonM

[audipower]

In my experience, which is low. I`ve always notice using SG that it last 3 months of noticeable depth and shine. Not as much shine as wax. With carnuba wax like P21S it would last a month in the summer in Ohio (82 degrees as highs). In fall (58 degrees highs) about 2 1/2 months.

I always get my customers to put sealent on under the wax so when it does melt that the sealent still protects the paint, or does it? That`s what always I wanted to know.

In your first paragraph you state that sealents have very little depth. Why do I get much more depth with SG then P21S? I define depth as mirror like image that brings out all aspects of the paint job. Layers of the paint job, metallic paints, and brings out the lines and the curves of the body.

Please educate me if you know. I love to learn. Sorry if my grammer isn`t good.

[togwt]

~One manâ€â„¢s opinion / observations~



Q: I always get my customers to put sealant on under the wax so when it does melt that the sealant still protects the paint, or does it? That`s what always I wanted to know.

A: The sealant will remain in tact even though the wax has melted (polymerâ€â„¢s melting point is approx 350oF) and its durability (how long it lasts is also much better)



Q: In your first paragraph you state that sealants have very little depth. Why do I get much more depth with SG then P21S? I define depth as mirror like image that brings out all aspects of the paint job. Layers of the paint job, metallic paints, and brings out the lines and the curves of the body.

A: âہ“I define depth as mirror like image âہ“, as I said the aesthetics of a vehicles appearance is very subjective to say the least. I would consider a â€Ëœmirror like image â€Ëœ to have more to do with reflectance than â€Ëœdepthâ€â„¢.The differing make-up of the molecules is what gives the different depth of shine between polymers and carnauba wax.



Q:Please educate me if you know. I love to learn.

A: If I can I will (â€ËœEach one, teach oneâ€Â�)



Sorry if my grammar isn`t good. Really no need to apologise as long as we can understand each otherâ€Â¦



~Hope this helps~



Knowledge unshared is experience wasted [each one / teach one]

justadumbarchitect / so I question everything/ JonM