View Full Version : what if I don`t wait?
Just was curious what happens when someone doesn`t wait at least 24 hours for a polymer to cure before topping with a carnuaba?
BillNorth
08-19-2004, 08:14 PM
The polymer won`t cure and crosslink properly, thus having an adverse impact on durability. If you can wait, then I would recommend it. If this is a customers car, then I would not top it. you will actually be doing them a disservice because the polymer will not last as long.
Bill.
your car explodes.... :scared
jk, try the search, i think there were some recent posts on this.
detailbarn
08-19-2004, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by L33
your car explodes.... :scared
No , NO L33 the paint melts! :D
But really to answer your question III nothing bad , I`ve had no problems topping AIO with P21S with no wait time and I get about 6 months out of that combo. Your results may vary.
Not waiting for a product to cure or set up properly, regardless if it`s a synthetic or a carnauba, also increases the chances that when you go to apply a second coat or another topper product, you will end up distrupting or dissolving the previous layer.
This is similar to the argument that you can`t layer carnauba and only end up smearing around or re-liquefying previous coats.
Thanks for the responses so far.
lbls1
08-19-2004, 11:32 PM
I usually won`t wait until my glaze dries b/f adding carnauba (I only do that step once a year), but sometimes if I am out of time, then I`ll wait a day or so b/f adding carnauba.
I have had excellent results without waiting for a polish glaze to dry. Your finish coat, however, should dry a little b/f adding additional coats. Contrary to a lot of opinions, wax will layer if applied correctly. Why would it have to be removed otherwise if it didn`t?
rstype
08-19-2004, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by lbls1
Why would it have to be removed otherwise if it didn`t?
I don`t quite get the connection. Can you explain?
Before, the most accepted thought was that wax does not layer because it doesn`t change like a polymer. Whereas a polymer changes its state when it cures and becomes something quite different, wax only dries and becomes re-liquified when you apply another coat.
lbls1
08-20-2004, 12:21 AM
How would a wax reliquify if you add another coat? I have not seen this happen with a pure wax.
What I was referring to was the process when you re-clean your paint after waxing it for a few months in order to re-start your process. There is a build up that has to be cleaned off of your paint if you use carnauba wax, that consists of the old wax and usually dirt and oxidation. (Visit Mothers.com; they have a explanation of what I am referring to) If re-applying wax dissolves the previous coats, then the wax would not act as a dress coat, but instead as a cleaner, which is opposite of the characteristic of a true wax. Also, you wouldn`t need to reclean the paint if the wax is dissolving with added layers, and you wouldn`t witness the dirty residue being removed, exposing (hopefully) vibrant paint.
Now a paste wax will change or soften b/c of the added ingredients that makes it dissolve onto the surface. Those ingredients of course will dissipate. The stretched wax that is promoting the resolution will remain. (I know......this is kindergarten stuff, but I was attempting to clarify). The developed resolution and its residue remains in the paint, and has to be removed after awhile. The additives to wax that produces beading and shine also wears away in time. The wax by product, though, remains on top of (and embedded) in the paint surface.
Originally posted by lbls1
How would a wax reliquify if you add another coat? I have not seen this happen with a pure wax.
It`s like if you paint with watercolour paint. You paint blue on a sheet of paper or canvas. You let it dry. Then you try to paint yellow over it. The water in the fresh paint redissolves the paint and you can get a smeary green.
In wax I would imagine this depends on a lot of things, like the wax formulation and the strength of the solvents involved... probably your application has an effect too.
lbls1
08-20-2004, 10:24 PM
Ok, but remember wax is supposed to repel water. Carnauba is (like some waxes advertise), in its natural form, a solid coating that has the hardness of a brick. Now if the wax hasn`t cured, and you`re applying coats on top of it, then you may have some blending there, but even that mix will (....should be..) thicker than the last applied coating. Piled on wax (5 coats in one shot) will not necessarily last longer than a properly cured coat of wax.
Waxes that have a lower content of carnauba will have a lot of additives in its mix, and it is possible some of those ingredients will have cleaning attributes (they should not though in order to be a pure wax). I have more news for you as well........Some cleaner waxes will layer! With my first car, before I knew better, I used to pile on Gliptone`s carnauba wax (which in fact was a combination wax and paint cleaner). A few years later after noticing that the paint was dull and had embedded dirt, I compounded the surface, and along with that wax build up a lot of the trapped dirt came up with it. To my surprise I discovered that the paint was very vibrant and shiny, much more than when I had all of that wax on top of it. That`s when I discovered that wax will not remove itself from your paint surface until you take it off with a cleaner or harsh soap.
rstype
08-21-2004, 02:30 AM
Originally posted by lbls1
Ok, but remember wax is supposed to repel water. Carnauba is (like some waxes advertise), in its natural form, a solid coating that has the hardness of a brick. Now if the wax hasn`t cured, and you`re applying coats on top of it, then you may have some blending there, but even that mix will (....should be..) thicker than the last applied coating. Piled on wax (5 coats in one shot) will not necessarily last longer than a properly cured coat of wax.
Waxes that have a lower content of carnauba will have a lot of additives in its mix, and it is possible some of those ingredients will have cleaning attributes (they should not though in order to be a pure wax). I have more news for you as well........Some cleaner waxes will layer! With my first car, before I knew better, I used to pile on Gliptone`s carnauba wax (which in fact was a combination wax and paint cleaner). A few years later after noticing that the paint was dull and had embedded dirt, I compounded the surface, and along with that wax build up a lot of the trapped dirt came up with it. To my surprise I discovered that the paint was very vibrant and shiny, much more than when I had all of that wax on top of it. That`s when I discovered that wax will not remove itself from your paint surface until you take it off with a cleaner or harsh soap.
Do you suppose that it could be the build up of contaminates and/or oxidation, instead of the wax physically layering? Just a thought...
Another thing... these threads about spit shining might interest you:
http://www.autopia.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38121
http://www.autopia.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38425
^^^
Hm, perhaps the cold water changes the `form` of the first application of wax, so that the second application doesn`t get liquified. A polymer`s form of change is crosslinking; maybe temperature could be carnauba`s?
This is exciting! Well, sorta... :p
imported_memnuts
08-21-2004, 05:45 AM
Originally posted by III
Just was curious what happens when someone doesn`t wait at least 24 hours for a polymer to cure before topping with a carnuaba?
By not following the sealant`s instructions one is not using the product correctly and "may" cause problems from the miss-used product. Manufacturers strive to make products as users friendly as possible. Normally instructions will not inhibit application techniques or set timetables without closely analysizing the ill effects if not followed.
By introducting the solvents and other ingredients that make paste and liquid wax user friendly, rarely does the carnuaba content excess 15% of content of a so-call 100% carnuaba pure waxes, one may either hinder the sealant final setting (curing) or may completely halt this reaction by diluting crosslinking elements to the point of isolation in a sea of topper.
It is best to follow the instructions and stated curing time recommended. If the Prep is good the topping of the sealant may not only be unnecessary but even if so desires to top, should only augment the final appearance slightly.
If unable to wait, a better route would be not to use the sealant and apply 2 layers (insure complete coverage not layering) and wait until one has time to use the sealant properly.
With that said, there is nothing wrong with experimentation. JMHO
imported_NHBFAN
08-21-2004, 08:33 AM
Originally posted by detailbarn
I`ve had no problems topping AIO with P21S with no wait time and I get about 6 months out of that combo.
Cuz, AIO doesn`t have a "cure" period ... it`s not a sealant:D
lbls1
08-21-2004, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by BW
Do you suppose that it could be the build up of contaminates and/or oxidation, instead of the wax physically layering? Just a thought...
Another thing... these threads about spit shining might interest you:
http://www.autopia.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38121
http://www.autopia.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38425
^^^
Hm, perhaps the cold water changes the `form` of the first application of wax, so that the second application doesn`t get liquified. A polymer`s form of change is crosslinking; maybe temperature could be carnauba`s?
This is exciting! Well, sorta... :p
Yes certainly there is dirt and oxidation within the build up, but there is a wax residue that is left behind. Otherwise you wouldn`t have a shine if the wax isn`t being stretched and layered (on second thought though....you don`t necessarily need wax to get a shine, but this product I was referring to is supposed to have wax in it). Do this if you dare.......I did this once on my first car. Do not wax your car for let`s say....six months to a year. Wash your car as best as you can. Then....take a towel and buff it (as if you have wax on top of it). You may find that the surface will have a shinier reflection after buffing it!!!!!!
Edit: I saw that post.....that isn`t necessarily so in terms of wetting between layers. You can use water or the qd on one layer of wax and get the refined shine with a wax. I don`t use detail between every layer, but a water mist and the final buff will bring you nice results.