Need product use clarification

[imported_Malachi]

I recently did a `98 Black MB that had a lot of swirls and scratches caused by toweling over a 5 year period.



I was not able to get them all out using a 7336/EPP (yellow can)/cutting pad. The advise I got (thread disappeared) was that I could be very agressive with that combo and work the product in for a while without fear.



I just want to make sure that I can attack it this way because if I get another shot at that car, I don`t want to fail and leave those marks again.



Another option that I see suggested is to stay with PP and work the area multiple times. I just don`t think that is going to work on this car.



I wonder when Mike says to use EPP only on heavily oxidated cars is he just talking to the folks that use rotarys or to anyone using that product?



Using a 7336, how long should you work in EPP/PP?

[Mike @ einszett]

Malachi,



Sorry I`m just only now responding to your question. DAs are great finishing tools the key word being "finishing". They just don`t create enough heat to really re-work the paint.



If you were to use a rotary and Paint Polish you could probably get most of it out. You would definitely get it out with Extra. BTW, using foam pads in both cases.



If I was in your shoes (using a DA), my inclination would be to go at least with a 5 on a DA. Faster would be preferable but as you go up you run the risk of dealing with the "Fickle Flying Pad". He is not one to contend with! :D I really don`t know why there is a setting higher than 6 on DAs... it`s kind of useless.



Anyway, you might also need to work each section for a long time to really get any effect.



Hope this helps... somewhat.



Regards,

[imported_Malachi]

Originally posted by Mike @Einszett

Malachi,



Sorry I`m just only now responding to your question. DAs are great finishing tools the key word being "finishing". They just don`t create enough heat to really re-work the paint.



If you were to use a rotary and Paint Polish you could probably get most of it out. You would definitely get it out with Extra. BTW, using foam pads in both cases.



If I was in your shoes (using a DA), my inclination would be to go at least with a 5 on a DA. Faster would be preferable but as you go up you run the risk of dealing with the "Fickle Flying Pad". He is not one to contend with! :D I really don`t know why there is a setting higher than 6 on DAs... it`s kind of useless.



Anyway, you might also need to work each section for a long time to really get any effect.



Hope this helps... somewhat.



Regards,



Thanks Mike. I was told by one of your vendors that I really need to work it in until it "flashes"(dries), so I am planning on trying that when I work on another car this weekend.

[Mike @ einszett]

Yes, this is the case with all polishes (in case anyone else out there doesn`t know this). Keep working the product until it just about disappears. The bonus with the Einszett products is that they stay wet for a lot longer than other brands allowing you to really work the product in and give you more control. Good luck and let us know how it turns out.



Regards,

[imported_Malachi]

I am still learning. I hope I get a second shot at this one. These are the before pics, sorry no after pics. I made them a lot better but was not completely successful. I wonder if I am just over my head with this one?



http://www.bmw540ifun.com/photogallery/MiscPics/Detailing%20Bobs%20Car%20003.jpg



http://www.bmw540ifun.com/photogallery/MiscPics/Detailing%20Bobs%20Car%20005.jpg



http://www.bmw540ifun.com/photogallery/MiscPics/Detailing%20Bobs%20Car%20010.jpg

[imported_CARFREAK]

Geez!Why on earth did he or she buy black???

That will take some work.

[imported_Malachi]

I am thinking that if I get another shot at this I will again use 1ZEPP/cutting pad/7336 and work it in longer and if that does not work I will try using a wool bonnet.



Does anybody have any experience with EPP/PC and a wool bonnet?

[Accumulator]

I`ve given this some thought and this is different from what I was *gonna* post. I haven`t tried EPP/wool (I now use a rotary for stuff that`s *that* bad), but I`ve used plenty of other similar products with the PC/wool combo, so I`ll extrapolate a bit from those experiences.



First, IMO, some of the worst scratches in those pics might be too deep to safely take out. But the "swirls" etc. should be doable. Benz clear isn`t the hardest in the world...



The wool pad isn`t all *that* much more aggressive than the foam cutting pad. But remember that the more aggressive you go, the more follow-up steps might be required (and each time you`re taking off more clear).



Most people (as in almost everyone) don`t work their products (especially the aggressive ones) *nearly* long enough to do a thorough job. Often not even long enough to really break them down. Doing correction like that by PC will take literally *hours*, so allocate enough time. Work a limited area until it`s good enough before moving on to the next area.



Definitely speed the PC up. I do at least 90% of my PC-polishing at speed 6. Keep the pad firmly on the surface and you`ll be fine.



As soon as the existing marring is "replaced" by the EPP/wool marring, try switching to PP and foam. If you`re lucky, that will be an OK next step. If not, back to EPP/foam, then PP/foam. After the aggressive steps(s), try to do as little additional work as necessary.

[imported_Malachi]

Originally posted by Accumulator

I`ve given this some thought and this is different from what I was *gonna* post. I haven`t tried EPP/wool (I now use a rotary for stuff that`s *that* bad), but I`ve used plenty of other similar products with the PC/wool combo, so I`ll extrapolate a bit from those experiences.



First, IMO, some of the worst scratches in those pics might be too deep to safely take out. But the "swirls" etc. should be doable. Benz clear isn`t the hardest in the world...



The wool pad isn`t all *that* much more aggressive than the foam cutting pad. But remember that the more aggressive you go, the more follow-up steps might be required (and each time you`re taking off more clear).



Most people (as in almost everyone) don`t work their products (especially the aggressive ones) *nearly* long enough to do a thorough job. Often not even long enough to really break them down. Doing correction like that by PC will take literally *hours*, so allocate enough time. Work a limited area until it`s good enough before moving on to the next area.



Definitely speed the PC up. I do at least 90% of my PC-polishing at speed 6. Keep the pad firmly on the surface and you`ll be fine.



As soon as the existing marring is "replaced" by the EPP/wool marring, try switching to PP and foam. If you`re lucky, that will be an OK next step. If not, back to EPP/foam, then PP/foam. After the aggressive steps(s), try to do as little additional work as necessary.



That sounds like great logical advise. Thank you :xyxthumbs



In terms of taking off more clear coat, what choice do I have :nixweiss Would a rotary not take off as much? I don`t think I can`t take those swirls off by hand can I?

[Mike @ einszett]

Originally posted by Malachi

That sounds like great logical advise. Thank you :xyxthumbs



In terms of taking off more clear coat, what choice do I have :nixweiss Would a rotary not take off as much? I don`t think I can`t take those swirls off by hand can I?



That paintwork needs a lot of help *understatement*. More so than I imagined. Fixable though. Everything is fixable. I`ve never gone into a job thinking I was going to take off too much clear. It just makes you paranoid :)



Like I said, a PC is a finishing tool. Accumulator`s advice is good.



You`re pretty restricted as to how much can be remedied as long as you`re using a PC (wool pad on there or not). No matter how high in speed I`ve gone with a PC, there just never was enough heat generated to fix this sort of problem. Stick with a foam cutting pad and work each section as long as you can.



If that doesn`t work, see a detailer with good experience with a rotary. Or you can do a temp fix and go with a coat of Waxpolish Soft. That manages to disguise a lot of problems. I`m not kidding.



Keep us updated. Have a good weekend.



Regards,

[imported_Malachi]

Originally posted by Accumulator

I`ve given this some thought and this is different from what I was *gonna* post. I haven`t tried EPP/wool (I now use a rotary for stuff that`s *that* bad), but I`ve used plenty of other similar products with the PC/wool combo, so I`ll extrapolate a bit from those experiences.



First, IMO, some of the worst scratches in those pics might be too deep to safely take out. But the "swirls" etc. should be doable. Benz clear isn`t the hardest in the world...



The wool pad isn`t all *that* much more aggressive than the foam cutting pad. But remember that the more aggressive you go, the more follow-up steps might be required (and each time you`re taking off more clear).



Most people (as in almost everyone) don`t work their products (especially the aggressive ones) *nearly* long enough to do a thorough job. Often not even long enough to really break them down. Doing correction like that by PC will take literally *hours*, so allocate enough time. Work a limited area until it`s good enough before moving on to the next area.



Definitely speed the PC up. I do at least 90% of my PC-polishing at speed 6. Keep the pad firmly on the surface and you`ll be fine.



As soon as the existing marring is "replaced" by the EPP/wool marring, try switching to PP and foam. If you`re lucky, that will be an OK next step. If not, back to EPP/foam, then PP/foam. After the aggressive steps(s), try to do as little additional work as necessary.



Accumulator,



I believe in the past you had written that you were more of a 3M fan in the past. Would their most abrassive rubbing compounds help in this case. I would have to use them with either by hand or PC.



I am think 1Z does not have anything more agressive than EP that can be applied by hand or PC.

[Accumulator]

Malachi- Good memory; yeah, I do like 3M`s abrasives. I haven`t tried them out yet, but their Extra-Cut (pn 05936) or their Super Duty (pn 05954) just might be what you`re after. As best I can tell these will work by hand/PC, but until I try them on something (and I only ordered the 05936) I won`t know for sure. Heh heh, and I hope I don`t have anything that serious to contend with for a long time ;)



3M *does* offer some aggressive products that they claim can be used without a rotary. And the no-fillers/concealers nature of these products often appeals to me.



If you want to try the 3M stuff, I order mine from HERE (http://www.handsontools.com/store/list_products/?category_id=8305)



Other than not being as aggressive as liquid sandpaper, the only problem (and that`s overstating it) I have with the 1Z Ultra/Extra is that to *really* see what I`ve accomplished, I feel I have to remove it`s waxes/fillers/concealers. Sorta a hassle, whereas the 3M RCs don`t have these. But it might not even be an issue here; note that on the Benz in question, it`s sorta a "who cares if they`re hidden or removed anyway?!" situation. You just want it to look a lot better, right?



I don`t know if you`d really be ahead using stuff other than 1Z, which you know and like, though it might be handy to have some of the stronger 3M stuff around to use before your 1Z on really bad ones.



Between 3M and 1Z (well, and Meg`s Unigrit wet-sanding stuff), I feel I`m well covered when it comes to my abrasives :xyxthumbs

I still don`t think you can beat 1Z`s stuff for "regular" polishing, though I`ll go over it with Menzerna FP if I`m worried about my LSP bonding (which isn`t often).

[imported_Malachi]

[i] 3M *does* offer some aggressive products that they claim can be used without a rotary. And the no-fillers/concealers nature of these products often appeals to me.



Other than not being as aggressive as liquid sandpaper, the only problem (and that`s overstating it) I have with the 1Z Ultra/Extra is that to *really* see what I`ve accomplished, I feel I have to remove it`s waxes/fillers/concealers. Sorta a hassle, whereas the 3M RCs don`t have these. But it might not even be an issue here; note that on the Benz in question, it`s sorta a "who cares if they`re hidden or removed anyway?!" situation. You just want it to look a lot better, right?[/B]



Your response if very much appreciated



You are reading my mind in a sense. I want to see what I have removed and what is still there and not covererd up with fillers in order to address the problem for as long as I can, then I will apply the 1Z products to do some more work and to hide the swirls.



The prescription that I am thinking about is:

1) Wash

2) Spot clay (I clayed last time)

3) aggressive non filler compound by hand or PC

4) PP

5) WPS

6) GW



It is step 3 that I am trying to solve for this case. I am also using this case to find out what can be helped or how much can be helped without a rotary.

[NavindraLR]

wow... that car is doomed... (malachi.. i think its a lost cause...)

[imported_Malachi]

Well maybe for an amateur like me.



If I get another shot at this car, I plan to try the following:



Using the PC set a 6, for a long period of time/pressure with the cutting/yellow pad



3M Rubbing Compund "Professional Formula" and EPP(again) then using Wax Polish Soft to hide the swirls.



I will top it with GW if I have time.