anyone know the website for the abc products?

[byrdpt]

i can`t seem to find it anywhere.

[Bill D]

Do mean Valugards`s A-B-C wash?



http://www.autoint.com



I didin`t see prices so I guess you have to call. I thought I saw somewhere a gallon of each: A,B,C cost about $60 (total)

[lewc]

Here`s (http://online.supern.com/acb/index.cfm?&DS_ID=3&DID=8) a link to autoint`s online store. You need to click on the "Enter The Store" icon on their Catalog/Store page.

[TLL]

I would recommend reviewing the Mfg`s approved and authorized product for paint decontamination. Their tech bulletin BF91-023 recommends using Finish Kare 1119/883 Paint Decontamination system for industrial fallout rail dust and acid rain. The TSB is old but still current. The Finish Kare created the original paint decontamination system.



The A-B-C system was copied after the Finish Kare System. Unlike Finish Kares the A-B-C system containes Oxalic Acid in its B Step. They disguise it under the name "Ethanediodic Acid". This is simply a different name for Oxalic Acid.



What is the significants of this? Oxalic Acid has been found to be damaging to paint, trim conponents, glass etc. It can soften and degrade paint film as well as damage trim conponents and even etch glass.



I would say that hundreds of thousands of cars have been decontaminated using the Finish Kare Decontamination System over the last +20 years without any problems.



Clay type products will only remove the symtoms of industrial fallout. Only the tops of the contamination will be removed. The remainder of the contamination as well as the acidic compounds they generate will remain to continue causing damage.



New cars are especially vulnerable to contamination.



The findings of clay and oxalic acid have been made and confirmed by the auto manufactures. They have gone on to specifically recommend not using clay type products or products containing oxalic acid.



PLEASE NOTE: We have evidence that TLL is a Finish Kare representative. Take Finish Kare product recommendations from TLL with an appropriately-sized grain of salt. -- Tort (moderator)

[wash-girl]

Originally posted by TLL

The findings of clay and oxalic acid have been made and confirmed by the auto manufactures. They have gone on to specifically recommend not using clay type products or products containing oxalic acid.



I read through the findings and recommendations of the few auto manufacturers on the Finish Kare site. (http://www.fk1usa.com/tsb.htm#) It appears that they do specifically recommend not using products containing oxalic acid, but the comments on clay pertain only to its inefficiency to fully remove industrial fallout.



I saw nothing that specifically stated clay would be damaging, in any way, especially when used for the removal of other contaminants that most of us use it for (tree sap, overspray, etc.). Please correct me, if I`ve overlooked something.

[TLL]

Paint contamination takes a wide range of forms. Rail dust, brake dust, bird droppings. acid rain and even tree sap and pollin etc. They are all forms of contamination. They all generate acidic compounds. The porosity of paint allows these acidic compounds to penitrate down into the subsurface.



Brake dust as an example generally attaches itself to paint via a magnetic attraction. At this point with the help of atmospheric condtions corrosion and acidic compounds are generated which allow the particles to penetrate and cause paint damage.





Of your two examples tree sap and overspray. I can accept clay as one method of correction for overspray. I would still Decontaminate the paint at the same time. But with tree sap you may remove the sap but have you removed the acidic compounds the sap has generated. No. The Decontamination system does.





The Ford TSB, as an example, states that Clay does not remove the entire ferrous metal particle "OR" environmental contamination with acid compounds and acid rain being a member the contamination family.



If your goal is to remove contamination why would you only remove part of it. Its like pulling weeds from the ground. The root remains and continues to grow



Is clay damaging? Yes, if for no other reason that it fails to correct what is causing the problem.



From experience using both systems and from the expience of others that have used both systems The Decontamination system is a superior system. It corrects the symtoms of contamination which would be what you see and feel. But whats more it corrects what you can not see, The things that are causing the damage.



Last point, the system is extremely efficient from a labor standpoint. It saves a vast amount of labor time over other methods such as clay type products. Clay type products require elbo grease. Where as The Finish Kare Decontamination System Makes efficient use of safe and effective chemicals.



Heres a test. Set a Bar of clay on the hood of car (A) next wet the hood of car (B) with the appropriate step from the decontamination system and allow the product to dwell. Which will do more work?



It will be the Finish Kare Paint Decontamination System. The clay will just set there. The Tail wagging the dog.



Story



3 weeks ago in Los Angeles We used the Paint decontamination System on 4 brand new white Crown Victorias that had been sitting in a holding lot for between 1 1/2 - 2 years with zero attention. They were covered with everything including sap, birddoppings. rail dust, rust stains pollution, oil stains. Start to finish which included applying a coat of polymer paint sealant and touchup work it took on average between 30-40 minutes. There were to of us working on them but it was 102 degrees so were were not working real hard. The cars all looked fantastic.



This is not unusual, I have other guys tell me they have gone from spending 4-5 hours down to around 30 minutes.



Anyway.



PLEASE NOTE: We have evidence that TLL is a Finish Kare representative. Take Finish Kare product recommendations from TLL with an appropriately-sized grain of salt. -- Tort (moderator)

[Accumulator]

TLL- Welcome to Autopia. Interesting info. I`ve used ABC with no problems but I sure wouldn`t be opposed to using something with a lessened potential for damage. Prices look OK, too.



I checked out their website and maybe I`ll start recommending it as an alternative to the ABC (though I`d prefer to have first-hand experience with it first). The arguments against the use of oxalic acid are compelling, though again, I`ve never once had a problem with ABC (though I`ve been careful with it, kept it off the glass, for instance).



It`ll probably be tough to get many enthusiasts to use it though :( As with ABC, people seem leery of systems containing "strong" products. It`s hard enough getting people to clay their new vehicles (though, heh heh, I agree that decontamination systems are in many ways less labor intensive than claying), let alone convince them to do a "three step wash".



How well does the Step 1 product remove shipping film adhesive? And is it (in your opinion), too strong/base to use as an occasional "heavy duty wash" when the objective is to strip off any existing products (the way some folks use Dawn)?

[Bill D]

I`d be interested in using it if and when needed

[TLL]

Accumulator -



Excellent Question reguarding wrap guard adhesive. 1119 is very effective at removing this adhesive. This is a really big issue for Mfg`s and Dealerships. The current method of processing a new car is to pull the wrap guard, wash then use Prep Solv to remove residue.



The problem with this method is if the car is remotely damp the Solvent will not remove the adhesive.



As a result it is my thought that the detailer will fail to remove the adhesive or will use the solvent prior to washing. The former produces cars that appear to have scratched paint when the adhesive attracts dust. In the latter the surface really is scratched from wiping a surface covered with abrasive particles.



On a recent visit to an autoplex I`d say 75-80% of the cars on the lot had rap guard adhesive residue. Needless to say they looked really bad.



With the 1119 System`s Step 1 You are desolving this material away while performing its normal function.



With this system there is little if any reason to use Prep Solv type products



As for the caustic nature of 1119. Its not caustic at all. I jokingly call it alien technology. When you look at it it looks like milk with a mild sent (but not offensive).



For as gental as it is it`s amazing what it can do. Degrease your engine, wheel wells, I clean my white letter tires with it in seconds (and they are white). If you use it in a body shop as a prewash prior to sanding etc. it will eliminate fisheye. Its even a great tar remover.



You could wash your car every day with it and not damage your paint one bit. You will however remove 100% of the wax, 100% of the silicone, 100% of the grease and anything that is not part of the paint. It will even migrate into the hard to reach cracks crevises around door handles brake lights etc. and remove the wax build up



We have applied it to cars where the paint looked like a chalk board (really bad). We sprayed 1119 on with a hudson sprayer then using a sponge or shur scrub pad and agitated it a bit. Bam the oxidation just ran off.



Follow it up with a wash down using 118 SC and your good to go with your detail.



I would not preform any detail where you are waxing buffing etc without using at least the 1119 Soil and coating remover as a preclean.



A really clean surface promotes maximum wax/sealant adhesion.



When you take the time to decontaminate prior to buffing The buffer just sails across the paint like a skater on ice. You dont get the pad grabbing and skipping and jumping. The cut is less agressive. It reduces the amount of compound you use which reduces cleanup. And since your not fighting the buffer your also not sore at the end of the day.



A note on the A-B-C system. I have talked to some that have been turned off to this type of system after using the A-B-C system because it caused stains etching and discoloration. The Finish Kare System is the Original system and was developed at the request of Auto Manufactures and has been used on hundreds of thousands of cars over the last 20+ years without any problems and I guess without much notice by the general public.



Chemistry - Science Fact

Marketing - Science Fiction.



PLEASE NOTE: We have evidence that TLL is a Finish Kare representative. Take Finish Kare product recommendations from TLL with an appropriately-sized grain of salt. -- Tort (moderator)

[jimmybuffit]

TLL: Welcome to the board!



Your first several posts have been quite interesting. Aggressive, perhaps, but interesting.



Among the almost 17,000 members of this board, there may be a few who take issue with:



A). with your credibility, after three negative posts...



B). with your credibility, are you simply promoting (to enthusiasts) an `unknown` system?



C). The basis for the purported `flaw` in AutoInt`s A-B-C System has not been substantiatiated - third party.



I`m sure you are a credible person. I suspect you have credentials which substantiate your position. But, if you want to make a point, make a reputation here first. Create a basis for your opinion. Command a little repect..



I hope that sounds like good advice. It is certainly intended in that regard.



Speaking of credibility (on this board), one response from a senior AutoInt poster (which won`t happen) would, at this point, blow you out of the water.



Am I predjudiced towards one product line? Probably. I`ve watched AutoInt ship PALLETS of the A-B-C System direct to OEMs. So much for the TSBs.



Nevertheless, Welcome to Autopia. Read a little...



Jim

[TortoiseAWD]

TLL,



If you are a representative of Finish-Kare, please review our policies regarding commercial posting.



Tort

(moderator)

[Accumulator]

TLL- Thanks for your info about the use of [pn 1119] to remove shipping film residue. Yeah, the concerns about the downsides of other methods were what I was thinking about. Lots of effort (and multiple washes) to clean it off without marring, and I wasn`t 100% satisfied with how the "A" part of ABC worked on it (or rather, didn`t work).



On the topic of your credibility and the perceived nature of your posts, let me offer a little friendly advice (and I know all about the pitfalls of offering unsolicited advice ;) ).



Regulars here know that I`m a proponent of using a decontamination system. I`ve only used ABC so that`s what I have recommended. My recommendations are based on first hand experience. And I`m pretty careful about what I use on my S8 (and other vehicles too, for that matter). Again, *NO* problems. If it had caused a problem I would`ve said so loud and clear. So it simply cannot be said that the "B" step`s oxalic acid will absolutely/necessarily cause damage. It just hasn`t happened in my experience, and I`m the sort who would notice. So you might want to moderate the "competitor-bashing" tone; as you can tell, it doesn`t go over too well here. It`s easy enough to advocate a product`s virtues without bashing another product.



In addition, as you get a feel for Autopia, you`ll find that many of us (already) truly possess "expert knowledge" about automotive detailing, something you might want to take into account. "Speaking to your target audience" and all that...some portions of what you`ve posted sound a little, uhm, pedantic and condescending.



Finally, if you are not affiliated with FinishKare, well, you sound like you are. Best to keep such associations out in the open. We have manufacturer`s reps here who are clearly partial to their companies` products- that`s to be expected, and that`s fine with us. But note that you`ve already prompted a moderator to address this topic.



Hope you take the preceding the way it`s intended. FWIW, I`ll add the FinishKare system to my decontamination recommendations, albeit with a disclaimer that I haven`t actually tried it yet. But I *do* plan to try it.

[BillNorth]

I do wish Ron was here. I`d love to hear what he would say to this. I too have used ABC with no problems.



Bill.

[BillNorth]

Originally posted by BlackRegal

If Ron were here he`d likely say something to get himself banned again :D



The transgressions that have taken place on these forums during the last few months have been far worse than anything Ron has ever done. Yet the real offenders are still here... and Ron is not.



Bill. :down

[togwt]

~One man’s opinion / observations ~



BillNorth- your right I’ve read some if not all, of Ron’s post’s the man knows paint systems and its care/maintenance.



“Yet the real offenders are still here...� they tend to fade away by attrition, as most Autopia contributors can ‘see’ through them (and ignore their mostly ‘borrowed science fiction’ advice).



~Hope this helps~



Experience unshared; is knowledge wasted…/Jon

justadumbarchitect *so I question everything*