Can we settle this: Do clearcoats need oils?

[beanbag]

I have read many posts by Mike Phillips about how dawn or iso can "strip" the oils out of paint, causing it to look dull. When he said paint, I assumed he meant clearcoat too. Thus the purpose of a glaze is to "nourish" the paint with these oils and have them soak back in.



I have also read posts by others saying that there is no such thing.



So I hope we can settle this issue once and for all: Does it actually help to slather a glaze over clearcoats, in terms of looks or long term durability? (assuming the surface is already well polished) Is Medallion Paint Cleaner, AIO, Platinum Paint pre-cleaner, etc BAD for clearcoat because it would clean out these oils? How would somebody be able to use a polymer if they wanted to use a glaze as well? (I suppose you could just put them over a glaze, but it would be against the manufacturer`s recommendations, especially since you can`t use their glaze-removing pre-cleaners like AIO or PUPC). Meguiar`s Medallion/#20/NXT is a special case coz they say go ahead and put it over a glaze. Yet I can`t imagine that a Meguiar`s polymer sealant is all that different from others.

[rstype]

Here`s an alternative point of view, from an email I got:




It is called "marketing" to maintain a century old image.



When the founder, Frank Meguiar started the company, the materials used were such as chinese varnish with carbon black, then alkaloid enamels and finally lacquers. These did "dry out", oils in them evaporated, left the paint film.



Today`s high solid materials are polymers, and do not "breathe" off oils, others than the oils in the polishes or waxes.



The whole bit on "oils" etc, is just marketing buzz words used to convince purchasers to buy their products, in reality, no longer a factor since the introduction of acrylic lacquers and enamels in the mid 50`s. Acyrlic and polymers are chemical cousins, with the polyurethane systems being more robust and long lasting as a paint coating.

[imported_BretFraz]

As BW`s post alludes, oils in glazes used to be more beneficial when auto paint was not as robust as it is today.



With modern paint all a glaze does is alter the appearance. It adds nothing to the paint as the paint cannot accept oils. Remember that the painted surface is not totally flat. It has slight depressions or "valleys", creating a ripple effect. In bad cases that effect is orange peel.



What a glaze will do is slightly fill in those "valleys" with oils, creating the illusion of smoother paint. Making the paint surface flatter by filling in the depressions provides more light reflection which leads to glossier paint.



Today we have sophisticated products that can do the same thing without the use of oils. When you read of people applying multiple coats of Zaino, for example, and remark that their paint got glossier, what really happened is the additional coats of sealant leveled the depressions and improved light reflection.



You get the same results from the other direction - lowering the "hills" by abrading the paint with a polish. Whether you are filling the valleys or lowering the hills... or both, you are reaching the same conclusion which is leveling the paint to improve light reflection and therefore, gloss.



I like glazes in certain applications but with new technologies, I think the practical use of a glaze is becoming limited. I forsee a day where a glaze has very little use in daily driven cars (maybe we`re there already) but still works well with a show car or garage queen.



As a product user you have to ask yourself, "Does this product work for me in a practical sense?" Set your priorities then decide what products to buy and use.

[forrest@mothers]

well said, bret.

[AdamJoe]

Well I think thats settled!

[DCT]

I find this quite interesting, but at the same time, quite disturbing! I recently read an article by MP at another site........ can`t remember which one, that reads quite the contrary to responses in this thread.



To me, that means that Meguiar`s, it`s chemists, and MP, given that information from Meguiar`s and the chemists, is giving the consumer a bum steer, or perhaps he/they simply don`t know?



On the other hand, the responses in this thread could be mis-informed, or simply guesses or hearsay?



It would be interesting to hear from a independent Automotive paint expert on this one. :nixweiss

[forrest@mothers]

White - if you can, go back and find that thread. I don`t think Mike, et al, are saying the opposite.



It seems like that thread mentioned microscopic pits or pores in the paint surface. Glazes fill those in, giving the paint a more uniform surface, which is the goal of most protection products.



edit: from the thread I think you`re referring to:



These trade secret oils then act to fill the empty microscopic pores, air pockets and surface imperfections



Manufacturers work for a uniform appearance (the lower the standard deviation, the more uniform and "better" it looks). For instance, if you measure gloss reading at 5 points on a panel, say 80, 62, 38, 87 and 75, the SD is 42 - the diff between the highest and lowest number. On another area, if it`s 67, 65, 70, 71 and 68, the SD is 6. Even though the highest reading is lower in the second example, that panel will look better because it`s more uniform.



Keep in mind surface imperfections will increase SD because the light won`t reflect straight back, it`ll go off at an angle because of the imperfection. So, the glaze will reduce the imperfection and raise the gloss # (while lowering the SD), making it seem more uniform and consequently "shinier".



Hope this helps.

[togwt]

Quote: Why Meguiar’s recommends polishing paint

Resins

The primary ingredient used in automotive paints to actually coat over, protect, and beautify your vehicle is called resin. Resins are made from different types of oils. These oils vary depending on the paint type, but they are oils just the same.



Modern resins are typically derived from polyurethane and/or acrylic polymers, which are tougher and more resistant to harsh environmental damage. Even though modern resins are more durable, they will breakdown over time through deterioration.



The forces of oxidation, or reduction usually cause deterioration. Primarily deterioration comes from exposure to outdoor environments such as inclement weather, or warm temperatures and direct sunlight. Washing with high alkaline detergent soaps accelerate this deterioration by stripping any wax protection off the surface and by attacking and drying out the resins. Think about it this way, if you have a brand new car or a brand new paint job and you store the car in a garage (or say a museum), the finish never deteriorates. That`s because it is never exposed to forces that attack and deteriorate the resins. End Quote



~One man’s opinion / observations ~



Assumption: automotive paint (primary ingredient is resin, made from different types of oils) and is derived from polyurethane and/or acrylic polymers, and washing with high alkaline detergent soaps will accelerate deterioration by stripping any wax protection off the surface and by attacking and drying out the resins (oils).



Conclusion: based on the above the oils would need to be replaced when they dry out?



Experience unshared; is knowledge wasted…/

justadumbarchitect * so i question everything*

[DCT]

forrest,



Thanks! I believe TOGWT found the exact thread that I was refering too. The "conclusion" is what I was refering to specificly. I think the body of the thread goes to great lenghts to lead one to that conclusion.



I`ve also heard, and read similar info from Meguiar`s/MP with the word "replenished" used. Whatever the case........ the question seems to be simple......... "Do modern paints lose their oils, and can they be replaced with the oils in car care products?"

[Mike_Phillips]

Here`s the actual link,



Why Meguiar’s recommends polishing paint (http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=205)





Mike

[Bobby G]

Originally posted by beanbag

I have read many posts by Mike Phillips about how dawn or iso can "strip" the oils out of paint, causing it to look dull. When he said paint, I assumed he meant clearcoat too. Thus the purpose of a glaze is to "nourish" the paint with these oils and have them soak back in.



I think we got off the intended topic. While the oils in glazes do serve the purpose of adding gloss by filling and leveling, the issue of the beneficial nature of oils and paint has not been addressed.



In reality, oils are beneficial in that they retard oxidation. For anyone who uses a carnauba wax as paint protection, this would be pretty important to know. Honestly, do you think the carnauba wax itself has protective qualities? Wax is porous and hydroscopic.



While I do not believe in the BS many companies use regarding the "... paint feeding qualities..." oils are a necessary element in many paint protection systems.



That said, good polymer sealants and acrylic sealants get along just fine without oils. Oxidation is retarded by keeping water, salt and other corrosives off of the paint.



Here`s a question to ponder: Do oil-in-water emulsion polymer sealants really work? Is it possible to achieve a bond with oil in the emulsion or are we right back to where we were with a carnauba wax system?

[togwt]

Quote: …the issue of the beneficial nature of oils and paint has not been addressed.



~One man’s opinion / observations ~



“That said, good polymer sealants and acrylic sealants get along just fine without oils. Oxidation is retarded by keeping water, salt and other corrosives off of the paint.�

Agreed. So then paint resin (oil) does not need to be replaced?



“In reality, oils are beneficial in that they retard oxidation. For anyone who uses a carnauba wax as paint protection, this would be pretty important to know. Honestly, do you think the carnauba wax itself has protective qualities? Wax is porous and hydroscopic.�

I agree any type of protection would be beneficial to protect against oxidation. I’ve always considered Carnauba wax to be a sacrificial type protection, because of its melting point and that the solvent and oil were included to soften (solvent) and lubricate (oil). Where as a polymer type sealant has a far better durability and will withstand much higher temperatures than wax



Experience unshared; is knowledge wasted…/

justadumbarchitect * so i question everything*