Layer P21S or EX

[MetalSludge]

Hi all here is the setup I am about to do. I was wandering should I layer the PoorBoys EX or P21S?



PoorBoys Pro Polish

PoorBoys SSR1

PoorBoys EX

top it with P21S paste wax.



Should I layer the EX or P21S or both?

[imported_memnuts]

EX x2 or 3 ( 24 hrs apart. This not a rule but just from my experience from testing EX prior to its release)



P21S x1 at least 24 hrs after last EX layer and maintain with P21S after that.



There is only a slight increase in appearance with P21S as a topper so no need to rush to apply. :wavey

[imported_awd330]

Originally posted by blkZ28Conv

There is only a slight increase in appearance with P21S as a topper so no need to rush to apply. :wavey

I`ve found that the slight improvement in appearance disappears after the first wash. I just leave the EX untopped now.

[Deanski]

As I posted in another thread, I keep hearing more and more about EX failures after a short timeframe. Remember, EX is a wax by most means with some resin added. It`s NOT a true sealant by any means. It`s not a true polymer sealant.



Great idea, but as with other true sealants, most just use the sealants then top with wax if they choose later.



EX was a responce to try to marry both worlds, but IMO, it seems lacking in durability. If you "wax" often, then no problem with EX. If you do not, expect it to last just several months if you`re lucky.



You`re better off with a true sealant, Zaino, Klasse, UPP, #20 etc and then top with wax.



There are many products to try and test, so it`s a matter of time until you find one that just is the best you`ve seen.



Regards,

Deanski

[MetalSludge]

So what are you saying that the EX isnt really worth the time? I have been using it for like 3 months now but I have applied it about every 2 weeks and it seems to be doing great. My problem is I am trying to find something that will get me through the winter. As my truck is also a daily driver and isnt garage kept and in the winter its almost impossible to wax let alone keep clean. Thats why I was going to top it with p21s paste wax. What would you reccomend for this situation?

[imported_Intermezzo]

I might get flamed for this, but in my experience, EX doesn`t layer very well because of its cleaning properties. As a stand-alone product with no topper, EX seemed to die quicker than P21S carnauba. :down



Topping EX with P21S carnauba may slightly increase durability, but not nearly long enough to get you through the winter. For that I would recommend layering 3-4 coats of Klasse SG or Zaino without any toppers.

[imported_memnuts]

Originally posted by Deanski

As I posted in another thread, I keep hearing more and more about EX failures after a short timeframe. Remember, EX is a wax by most means with some resin added. It`s NOT a true sealant by any means. It`s not a true polymer sealant.



Great idea, but as with other true sealants, most just use the sealants then top with wax if they choose later.





Regards,

Deanski



Via personal experience with ( not hearsay) EX on my black LS400 is doing quite well. It actually maintains a cleaner appearance after a light rain than my Zaino on the Z28 ( very prone to non-damaging water spotting secondary to extreme (tiny) beading ability). EX has a different look than Zaino but just as pleasing. Very reflective and carnuaba deep. Very, very good product. Seems to be bonding well with my clearcoat Lexus paint.

What defines a sealant or not? polymers? resins? crosslinking? resins and carnuaba mixtures? a combination?

To call Poorboy`s EX, Mother`s Reflection, Clearkote`s Moose series, etc are not sealants of some type because they are not polymeric in composition, I believe is inaccurate. JMO :nixweiss

[BradE]

Originally posted by blkZ28Conv

To call Poorboy`s EX, Mother`s Reflection, Clearkote`s Moose series, etc are not sealants of some type because they are not polymeric in composition, I believe is inaccurate. JMO :nixweiss



I`m not the biggest ClearKote fan in the world, but I give them credit on one point, they don`t market their product as a sealant. Nor do they claim as such. They market them as waxes.



Mothers does not define the Reflections product as a sealant either, they define it as a "Polish/wax" with resins. Never do they use the word sealant.



Poorboys on the other hand, does claim itself to be a sealant. One with wax in it I might add. :rolleyes: How can the resin possibly work since the products contains wax? It can`t. The resins won`t crosslink in the presense of oils, which wax contains.



By that defination does every product with wax and resin become a sealant? In that case Meguiars #26 is a sealant too. 3M Perfect-It Show Car wax would also then be a sealant. Given that rational, do I consider Poorboys EX to be a sealant? No. I consider it to be a liquid wax with resin in it. Does that make it a bad product? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on what kind of product your looking for. One thing is certian, it`s not a sealant.



On the durability reports, I personally have not tried the product, nor do I intend to. I have however spoken with some of the most respected members of this community, and EX has not been a good preformer. Durability on average for these folks ranges from 1-2 weeks. Does not sound like the performance of a sealant to me. :down

[Scott P]

You should add Zaino to your list of misleading products. It calls itself a Show Car Polish, but really doesn`t have any polishing properties.

[imported_Intermezzo]

Originally posted by Scott P

You should add Zaino to your list of misleading products. It calls itself a Show Car Polish, but really doesn`t have any polishing properties.



Not really. There`s a difference between what a product is named versus how a company tries to describe its product.



Other examples that come to mind are the "glazes" made by Zymol, Klasse High Gloss Sealant Glaze, Mothers Sealer & Glaze. The names may be confusing, but the companies clearly describe what these products are used for.



IMO, SRL is right on about EX. While results will always vary, I had very poor durability with this product. Also, it claims to not have any cleaning agents in it, but I have not found that to be true either.

[imported_memnuts]

Not to get into a chemistry discussion ( though I have extensive medical knowledge ( organic and inorganic chemistry a requirement)) but the existence of "oil" in a mixture does NOT exclude cross-linking of bondable substances within the mixture to bond (crss-link). A simple but good example is a scented candle. The scent in most cases are " volatile oils" but in the correct proportion does not inhibit the bonding of the candle wax. Needless to say, unless there is scientific rather than empirical thinking about this absolute rule of the "oil-free environmental" requirement for crosslinking please enlightned me. I am open for references.



Durability is something I rarely write about because I never allow my daily vehicles to go for more than a month without protectant rejuvenation. Detailing is like exercising. One can always find a reason not to do it but none of them really hold water ( please do not bring up harsh winters in some parts of the world. I grew up in New England (40+ years) and still kept my car protected prior to sealants). Fortunately, now I live in a temperate, non-industrial region and low acidic rain environment. So I can only extend my observations of EX`s durability performance. Very good. :xyxthumbs. Ohio and Cali are known for their acidic precipitation. In these types of situations EX may not fair as well.:nixweiss. If you do not or can not detail very often maybe something like Klasse or Zaino would be better. :nixweiss

But please reference me to this oil-free rule requirement for molecular cross-linking and product bonding to a painted surface.

TIA :wavey



SEALANT

PRONUNCIATION: AUDIO: slnt KEY

NOUN: 1. A substance, such as sealing wax, used to seal a surface to prevent passage of a liquid or gas.

[MetalSludge]

Well the winter months can be hard for me to wax my and detail my truck. Unfortunatly I dont have a garage to do this in and most of the time its not fit to do it outside. If I get a decent day I will try to if I can get it clean.

[imported_memnuts]

Originally posted by MetalSludge

Well the winter months can be hard for me to wax my and detail my truck. Unfortunatly I dont have a garage to do this in and most of the time its not fit to do it outside. If I get a decent day I will try to if I can get it clean.





Zaino and Klasse are known for their all-around durability in almost all environmental situations. The great thing about Zaino is that it looks great all by itself ( no topper required) wash (Z7) after wash (personal experience only) but requires a good prep when the weather is nice to get its full effect.

[BradE]

For crosslinking to a surface which in this case is paint, oil must NOT be present. In products with oil and resin, the resins attempt to crosslink to the oil rather than the surface media itself. Thus, since the resin is not actually crosslinked to the surface the durability is not as good because the resins are attempting to protect the oil itself. The property of the oil remains unchanged, so it will still degrade at a specific temprature, much like wax will. Oils, as we know, are not a durable as resins. It`s a matter of heat, resistance to detergent, etc.



Thus, products containing oils are not as durable, and the resin itself is not crosslinked to the surface. Now, depending on the type of oil, some oil/resin products are more durable than others. For instance silicone oil is more durable than most oils. Now I`m getting into more complex things, and I`ll quit rambling. :p



To put it in basic terms, in products with oil/resin the resin crosslinks to the oil rather than the surface itself. The oil will still have the same properties, thus degrade at a normal rate. So, these type of products will only last as long as the oils allows and the "polymer" plays no meaningful role. They are NOT typical, pure resin, sealants such as Klasse or Zaino.

[BradE]

Your little textbook answer for a sealant does not really mean much. By that theory I can wrap my car in plastic wrap and it`s a sealant. After all, it does not allow passage of liquid or gas. Paint would be a sealant, rubber would be a sealant, plastic a sealant, etc. Every wax ever made would then be a sealant.