Is beading a good indication of remaining wax?

[imported_doug]

I may have asked this question before, but I`ve thought about it a lot and I still haven`t seen a thorough and scientific answer. One of these days I intend to experiment to learn more about this, but here is what I suspect:



Beading is not really a good indication of how much wax you have on unless you have really lousy or unclean paint. Here`s why I beleive this:



Beading is a function of the surface tension of the water. (And the best way to measure the quality of beading is to look at how close to vertical the sides of the bead are.) When you have a dirty or slightly oxidized surface, the water "wicks" out and the bead sits lower. When you have a completely nonabsorbent, smooth surface, like polished glass, it sits up tall (as long, of course, as it has no detergent in it, or other chemicals from the surface or the in the water that reduce the surface tension.)



After fully preparing my car for waxing (claying and swirl removing), and BEFORE putting any wax on at all, it seems to bead just as well, which would tend to support the above theory.



So why do our surfaces bead less over time? ANYTHING that makes the surface less microscopically flat, including new swirls/micro marring (whether in the paint or the wax or the polymer) will reduce the bead quality. Also, I think that over time, an unprotected paint job will indeed oxidize a little, even if you can`t see it, and it will certainly get some adhered dirt particles. These would also tend to reduce beading.



If our paint, even when clean, is truly porous, and the wax is filling in the "holes" and "leveling" the paint, this would make a flatter surface and hence better beads - and therefore also be a good indicator of how much wax was left.



But a) I am not convinced that this "porosity" exists, and b) as explained above there are other plausible explanations for the reduction in beading over time since the last wax job.



I suspect some of you know that is easy to make water "sheet" instead of "bead", merely by flooding the paint with a sheet of water (from a bucket, or hose with a low pressure stream) instead of a spray. Surface tension tends to hold the sheet together as it flows off the car. The same dirt, pores, or whatever are reducing the quality of beads will tend to break up the sheet, leaving more water on the car if the surface isn`t truly clean.





SO - any paint chemists / surface finish experts out there who can enlighten us? (Or simply other thoughts or experiences that help....)

[twistedman]

Water beading is a funtion of surface tension and it boils down ultimately to how well the water can bond to the surface of the paint. Definetely, a porous surface will adhere water better and result in less beading. However, since wax is mostly hydrocarbon, a non-polar molecule, and water is polar, water will not bond to a waxed surface and will tend to bead or flow off. Therefore, beading is a fair indicator to how much wax is left on the surface. Synthetics are also non-polor chains of molecules and does a good job at repelling water.

[imported_RIC]

I am not going to get into this other than to say that after claying and swirl removing you are likely to have some oils on the paint from the swirl remover product which would explain why your paint beads just as well. You should at least use rubbing alcohol on your paint after this step to remove these oils and then compare the size and shape of the beads to a surface with a wax or sealant and then see if there is a difference.

I can definitely see a difference in beading qualities between a waxed/sealed surface as compared to a clean non-waxed/non-sealed surface.

You also have to take into account what products are being used to clean. Some car wash products contain paraffin, carnauba or other wax that will provide some beading over the next few days after being washed. My point being that the non-waxed/nonsealed surface being compared to should be cleaned with a detergent that has no wax.

[YoSteve]

take the example of using a carwash that has sheeting action on a car that is freshed waxed. If it in fact sheets water off you know the wax is there. There`s a lot of factors going on at the same time.



I inquired a bit ago to a proffessor on surface tension and he said that beading and sheeting were similar in that they both repell water but sheeting repells quantiatively stronger.



If you notice a car that beads has clingly beads, while a car that sheets the water runs, most of the water with it. But, the leftover water on the sheeted car is beading as well. It shows they are related in some way. It`s why I use the term sheet-beading when I talk about Klasse.

[Preachers Sheets]

This is what I have seen in the past:



Beading = still product left on paint.



Sheeting with round drops of water on paint = still product left on paint.



Sheeting and water sets or odd shaped drops = no product left.



Bare paint will sheet and the water that remains will not gather in nice rounds drops (like beading drops). It will have an irregular pattern.



It`s hard to tell if the Klasse is still there or if the surface is bone dry but I think I have found the patterns.

[johnson]

Ive found that sheeting water is a better idea. On my test hood, I left half alone, and the other half with S100. After raining, there were significant water spots on the waxed side, and none whatsoever on the non-waxed side, because all the water had "sheeted" off.

[bcwang]

I don`t know if I can trust the beading test as a sign of wax. I`ve had a freshly waxed car, the next week when it rained, it was sheeting water like there was not wax. Then, sometime in the future, it would rain and rain and rain, and what do you know, it`s beading again.



Also, I have had my car not waxed for over 6 months, and it looked like it was still beading, though I doubt there was any more wax left since my car is always out in the sun, and my wax was just prestone bullet which (based on the wax test) isn`t really that durable.



The more I think about it, I feel that the original finish even unprotected will bead water. And sometimes, after a fresh waxing, the next time I wash the car there is absolutely no beading at all. Very strange! I think I`ll just wax my car whenever I get a chance, since I have no real sign whether the wax is there or not.

[Mirror]

Heres a Question for your theory.



Why after just one wash does the wax feel significantly more frictiony. QD helps a little, but the only way to restore the full smooth feel is to add another coat of wax.



Buy this time you know who I am. :cool:



What I did.



1 PPCL

2 Klasse AIO

3.Klasse SG x 3

4.Pinnacle Souveran x 2 waiting a day in between.



Finish was spectacular. About a week passed including a long drive. So I washed it for the first time today.



After I dryed the car and felt it,:wall It had lost that just waxed feel. PCM QD Did restore some of it. But not enough for my standard. So I gave it another coat of Souveran. Then inspecting the vehicle, I understood what everyone meant by Pop and Gling. :eek:



I have experienced this friction increase after one wash with every wax I`ve tried. I was hoping that the Klasse underneath would make a difference but it didn`t.



The thing is, the car whilst dirty, still felt slippery smooth prior to the wash. I`ve tried twenty different car wash, shampoos and none of them make a difference.



Perhaps I`m being too critical. But since my new found love is Pinnacle Souveran, it jut glides on and off, what a dream to work with. I think I will just add another coat of Souveran after every wash. Can anyone see any downsides to adding a coat of wax once per week. :nixweiss



Souveran is not supposed to yellow. I believe most of it washes off after just one wash. But I believe that about ALL Carnaubas.

[Preachers Sheets]

Originally posted by Mirror

I believe most of it washes off after just one wash. But I believe that about ALL Carnaubas.



It could happen if you are using too much soap. Your soap water ratio should allow the soapy water to bead/sheet once your pass over a panel. I would use one ounce per 5 gallons. You can wash your car with water most of the time, if it`s all that bad I`m sure the one ounce of soap will give you the extra grime cutting action you need.



One ounce for one gallon is big time overkill, thats why we are always wondering why the car doesn`t bead after 2 washes... you`ve just stripped everything off your car.

[Mirror]

Originally posted by joed1228

It could happen if you are using too much soap. Your soap water ratio should allow the soapy water to bead/sheet once your pass over a panel. I would use one ounce per 5 gallons. You can wash your car with water most of the time, if it`s all that bad I`m sure the one ounce of soap will give you the extra grime cutting action you need.



One ounce for one gallon is big time overkill, thats why we are always wondering why the car doesn`t bead after 2 washes... you`ve just stripped everything off your car.



I`m not talking about beading. I`m talking about frictionless feel. When you first wax the vehicle the paintwork feels frictionless.



After one wash, it has increased friction. I`m being too fussy, I know. But I love the shocked look on someones face when they come upto the vehicle and comment. But when they put their hand out and touch it. :shocked They do not expect to feel silk.



I love the ones that in talking, try to say that they`ve seen or done better. I just keep smilig and nodding. Then they finally touch it and.:doh

[otilio1]

I have noticed that my car will stop beading on the side panels first. Is this because they are exposed to more dirt and grime, or because it`s just harder to detect beading on the side panels?



Wouldn`t a car with a lot of road grime on it (greasy stuff) bead water (since oil and water stay separate)?

[Mirror]

Originally posted by segfault

Wouldn`t a car with a lot of road grime on it (greasy stuff) bead water (since oil and water stay separate)?



I wouldn`t know. Road grime is forbidden on my vehicles.:rofl

[shaf]

Originally posted by joed1228

One ounce for one gallon is big time overkill, thats why we are always wondering why the car doesn`t bead after 2 washes... you`ve just stripped everything off your car. Then how come almost all the car shampoo directions I`ve seen suggest using 1oz per gallon? :confused: :nixweiss



Mirror, the only disadvantage I see to waxing every week is that you`re touching your car more often, but the risk of damage is inversely proportional to how meticulous and careful you are of course. ;)

[imported_Intermezzo]

Originally posted by Mirror

I`m not talking about beading. I`m talking about frictionless feel. When you first wax the vehicle the paintwork feels frictionless.



Even the mildest car shampoos degrade wax big-time. I try to limit the amount of shampoo I use to about a half-ounce squirt with 3 gallons of water when the car isn`t too dirty. Also, I often use no shampoo at all except on the lowest panels because most of the dirt flies right off with a good rinsing.



If it rained during the week or if the car is very dirty, then I use the recommended full strength ratio of 1 ounce/gallon of water, knowing full well that most of the wax`s slickness will be gone afterwards. It`ll definitely be time to add a new coat of wax after that.




Originally posted by Mirror

But I love the shocked look on someones face when they come upto the vehicle and comment. But when they put their hand out and touch it. They do not expect to feel silk.



Hehe, I know how you feel. I used to do that to my wife all the time. She marvels at the shine and then marvels even more when she feels how smooth and slick the surface is. Of course, after making her feel the paint a thousand or so times, she doesn`t get surprised anymore.



Carguy,



Interesting observations. But doesn`t a freshly waxed car that gets dirty during the next few days from rain and dust still bead water fine at the end of the week when it comes time to wash the car? These adhered dirt particles don`t seem to affect beading too much.



Also, my experiences with Zaino and Klasse would indicate that it has less to do with what`s stuck on your car and more to do with the individual characteristics of your protectant. Klasse stops beading for me after 1 month, but Zaino continues to bead for about 4 months...even though the shine and protection for each product will last about the same.

[Accumulator]

4DSC-
Then how come almost all the car shampoo directions I`ve seen suggest using 1oz per gallon?



Keep in mind that it`s in their best interest for consumers to use up the shampoo so they will buy some more.



I usually use a stronger mix than joed1228 (unless the car`s already pretty clean), but 1 0z/gallon is VERY strong; TOO strong, IMO. Somewhere in between 0.2-.08 o/g should work fine on most cars. You can always put in some more soap as you go (the rinsed mitt will bring water from the rinse bucket and further dilute your mix).



Mirror- I`ve found that Souveran is VERY sensitive to wash solutions. You`re right, after a wash it often needs to be refreshed to keep that certain feel.



As for other carnaubas, Collinite beads the EXACTLY the same after more than one wash, and I was using a STRONG wash solution (its on my beater). Probably not the look you`re after, though.



segfault- You`re right about why the sides quit beading first (more abuse), but no, the road grime won`t cause beading. It just leads to a buildup of crud. Not all THAT oily, either.



An observation on beading: usually, when the wash seems to have severely diminished the beading, it still beads just as well later, after I`ve dried the surface. I`ll be thinking "I`ve gotta rewax next time, oughta rewax now" but when I next wash the car (or have it in the rain) it beads just fine. :nixweiss