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Bunky
07-25-2014, 10:20 AM
I have a question for Dr. G.

On detailing forums, there are some that state they are chemists (or associated with them) and then plenty of some that think they are. We often try to make predictions on products by the MSDS sheets (for those product makers that willingly provide them) that may list only 10% of the ingredients.

My question is what do you think is the most misunderstood about chemistry.

I think the biggest areas of debate are pH (balanced vs neutral) and how to strip LSP. One company claims any of their general soaps used can strip when used in higher concentrations.

The second aspect is how to prove (at least to settle some debates) whether the LSP has been stripped.

Bunky
07-29-2014, 11:32 AM
Bump!

Dr. G
07-31-2014, 10:20 PM
I have a question for Dr. G.

On detailing forums, there are some that state they are chemists (or associated with them) and then plenty of some that think they are. We often try to make predictions on products by the MSDS sheets (for those product makers that willingly provide them) that may list only 10% of the ingredients.

My question is what do you think is the most misunderstood about chemistry.

I think the biggest areas of debate are pH (balanced vs neutral) and how to strip LSP. One company claims any of their general soaps used can strip when used in higher concentrations.

The second aspect is how to prove (at least to settle some debates) whether the LSP has been stripped.



Bunky,

There are a large number of marketing concepts that have been brought into the car care industry from the cosmetics market which are irrelevant and misused. My favorite one is the concept of “feeding your paint” by using almond meal and banana oil in automotive products. However, we all know that paint is not alive and you can not feed it!



Another good example is SPF rating which is designed for sun screens and has no correlation with automotive paint. The automotive paint industry categorizes UV absorbers based on their half life. The UV absorbers used in cosmetics, regardless of their SPF ratings, have a half life of a few hours and need to be reapplied several times a day, while those used in the automotive industry, which are also used in the Optimum Car Care products, have a minimum half life of 5 years!



The balanced pH falls in this category also since it relates to matching the pH of product to the pH of the recommended substrate. For instance, if the pH of skin is 5.5, a pH balanced skin lotion is buffered to have a pH of around 5.5. For automotive applications again there is no correlation and it is more dependent on the product requirements. Of course any product with high (caustic) or low (acidic) pH should be used with caution and rinsed after use.



To remove waxes , sealants, and oils you can use detergents, solvents, or degreasers. The higher the concentration of these products, the more effective they become, however, they can also become more aggressive. Once all waxes, sealants, and oils are removed, paint surface should be squeaky clean.

David,

Trouble
07-31-2014, 10:32 PM
I have a question:

How did you get all those blue dots under your name with only 2 posts?

RaysWay
07-31-2014, 10:34 PM
I have a question:

How did you get all those blue dots under your name with only 2 posts?

Answer:
1. He`s Dr. G
2. He knows a guy. :cool:

Trouble
07-31-2014, 10:40 PM
Answer:
1. He`s Dr. G
2. He knows a guy. :cool:

Obviously ...

TacoHerder
07-31-2014, 11:33 PM
I would think pH really only matters with shampoos.

tedj101
08-01-2014, 02:41 AM
I would think pH really only matters with shampoos.

The pH of bug guts matters!

Bunky
08-01-2014, 08:04 AM
Thanks for the answer. I have a follow up question.

Can a ph balanced shampoo (like Optimum Car wash) reduce the LSP (wax, sealant)
when used a say a 5x concentration such as 5 ounces per gallon?

This is really a question about if the soap has a pH higher than say 7-8 and relies on dilution to make it the desired pH. I had seen a comment that ph typically drops by 1 ph for each 100x dilution.

For example, ph 11 at straight theb ph 10 at 1:100 dilution, etc.

Dr. G
08-02-2014, 08:09 PM
Thanks for the answer. I have a follow up question.

Can a ph balanced shampoo (like Optimum Car wash) reduce the LSP (wax, sealant)
when used a say a 5x concentration such as 5 ounces per gallon?

This is really a question about if the soap has a pH higher than say 7-8 and relies on dilution to make it the desired pH. I had seen a comment that ph typically drops by 1 ph for each 100x dilution.

For example, ph 11 at straight theb ph 10 at 1:100 dilution, etc.


Bunky,

pH is actually base 10 logarithmic scale so for every 10x dilution, it changes by 1 point and 100x dilution will change it by 2 points toward neutral pH (7.0). Once pH is 7.0, additional dilution will not change it anymore.

In general pH of 6-8 is considered neutral which is the pH of Optimum Car Wash. What removes lsp is more dependent on detergency and less on pH. Higher concentration of surfactants will also increase their detergency. Basically, soaps are a combination of surfactants which include cleaners, foamers, foam stablizers, and chelating agents. Cleaners are the main component of soap and depending on the type, they can have low, medium, or high detergency. Car wash soaps in general and Optimum Car Wash in particular, have cleaners with very low detergency that are high in lubricity. Foamers are added since consumers equate foam with cleaning and lubrication and there are no real benefits. Foam stablizers are added for the same reason.

I am not sure why you are so focused on soap since polymer based washes such as No Rinse are much better in terms of cleaning and protecting paint from marring. Furthermore, No Rinse washes do not remove lsp but add additional protection.

David,

silverfox
08-02-2014, 08:31 PM
The foam cannon crowd must be in shock...to know that foamers offer no real benefits other than stroking the consumers appetite for more of it.

Trouble
08-02-2014, 09:05 PM
The foam cannon crowd must be in shock...to know that foamers offer no real benefits other than stroking the consumers appetite for more of it.

I`ve been preaching that message since day 1. The only thing using a foam cannon is good for would be photo opp`s for a website/thread trying to sell to the individual who doesn`t know any better, but thinks it looks cool/effective

When I see a detailer promoting the use of a FC I can tell I am viewing someone with very little knowledge of this trade. It`s typically pretty funny too I might ad ...


Back to your regular scheduled programming


:swirly:

Bunky
08-03-2014, 05:23 AM
I am not sure why you are so focused on soap since polymer based washes such as No Rinse are much better in terms of cleaning and protecting paint from marring. Furthermore, No Rinse washes do not remove lsp but add additional protection.


I was asking about soaps since there is a lot of discussion in detailing community on how to strip waxes and sealants. This is important to some because they believe apply a new wax or sealant should be applied a perfectly clean surface and not have to use a chemical like a pre-wax cleaner to remove it. They would prefer to apply a product in some broadcast manner (like through a foam cannon) to achieve this.

I asked about Optimum soap in highly concentrated form because I would guess you would not comment on other companies` products. Some representing another car product company make a big deal that highly concentrated car soaps STRIP waxes and sealants.

From your response, in Optimum soap, the detergency is increased but still no idea if it will significantly reduce to achieve the goal I mentioned above. Optimum No Rinse does not have detergents so at any dilution it will not affect the wax/sealant.

There is plenty of marketing misinformation and just trying to get your opinion.

silverfox
08-03-2014, 08:19 AM
Unfortunately marketing and perception trumps chemistry and reality most of the time....especially in an undisciplined, unregulated, free for all industry.

Bunky
08-03-2014, 09:24 AM
Unfortunately marketing and perception trumps chemistry and reality most of the time....especially in an undisciplined, unregulated, free for all industry.

When selling any product, marketing is always behind everything. I just wish some that do know would reveal more about the chemistry. I know some companies, like Meguiars, always says judge a product by what it does and not is what is in it but people are inquisitive especially when you have 6 zillion car washes available for sale. This leaves some predicting a product`s performance based upon the MSDS sheet (when they are shared and many do not readily share them) that often just list 5 to 10% of actually what is in it.